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Old 02-12-2009
 
#1
Canada Kaizen
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 Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...
Default Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

Feel free to discuss the formal debate on ethics between Ben and myself.

This is a free discussion on the ideas being presented and the personalities involved.

A voting thread will be opened at the conclusion of the debate for people to decide who is the winner.
 
Kaizen has 1,469 Posts

"Liberty, or Freedome, signifieth (properly) the absence of opposition; (by Opposition, I mean externall Impediments of motion) and may be applied no lesse to Irrationall, and Inanimate creatures, that to Rationall.

And according to this proper, and generally received meaning of the word, a free man, is he, that in those things, which by his strength and wit he is able to do, is not hindered to doe what he has a will to."

- Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan.

So close... Yet so far.
 

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Old 02-13-2009
 
#2
Canada KP
Words Will Never Hurt You
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 KP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too much
Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

Just a thought, if you're grabbing quotations from wikipedia could you either add a footnote with a link (2 part reason a so we can read deeper and b to check for massive paraphrasing in your argument) or direct links where you reference them?

And to that you shouldn't have to define words for us... I see the reasoning behind it so people don't lose their train of thought reading your argument by trying to figure out what a word means but it somewhat clouds your message in my opinion.

Beyond that I'm curious to see what Ben has to say... nice first post
 
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Old 02-13-2009
 
#3
BlizzForums Neo
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Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

Oh, Kaizen we've got a wiki tag here -- [wikipedia] term [/wikipedia] (just an fyi).

Looks good so far.
 
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Old 02-13-2009
 
#4
United States GenocideAlive
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Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

I'm going to put out there that perhaps you should both give considerations to sparing a bit of the punctiliousness and sticking to main ideas. I am adrift in a sea of information, with no clear concept as to relevance or order. If you feel that 3 pages of minutae are vital to your cause, at least do some heavier formatting? Maybe I shouldn't complain. :P
 
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Old 02-13-2009
 
#5
United States Ben
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Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

yea we probably should
 
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What's happening?
I keep my dreadlocks in a napkin ring
Rap and sing
Unlike the homogenous clones
I'm in to earth tones, birth stones, and erogenous zones
The more ticklish the more you have
Sitting on the curb of what used to be the burbs
And before that was Canarcie
I'm a disturbed and bitter herb
Like saltwater and parsley

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Old 02-13-2009
 
#6
Orkney Islands H0teLVi0LeT
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Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

I must say, I'm impressed. It's also good to see Kaizen posting again.
 
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Old 02-13-2009
 
#7
United States remixedlife91
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Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

Again, Kaizen, this is a great idea doing this. A lot more civilized than the flame wars that cover most of SD.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
If I told a bitch I loved her and she said "you're welcome" I'd smack her and tell her to get the fuck out.


Sometimes.... I want to be a pornstar!!
 

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Old 02-14-2009
 
#8
Canada KP
Words Will Never Hurt You
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 KP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too muchKP might just love this place a little bit too much
Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

Ben tying his discussion in with Fallout 3 is a winning strategy. When you are trying to win posters on a video game forum over... posting video game references that actually make sense is a smart move.
 
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Old 02-14-2009
 
#9
BlizzForums Neo
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Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

Guys not to be nitpicky here, but we're looking for serious suggestions or comments. The "that's cool" comments are nice and all, but we're still in Serious Discussion after all :P

EDIT: Woops, crossed my threads. That was wierd. O_o
 

Last edited by Neo; 02-14-2009 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 02-14-2009
 
#10
United States The Hawaiian
Ua mau ke ea o ka ʻāina i
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 The Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too much
Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
I'm going to put out there that perhaps you should both give considerations to sparing a bit of the punctiliousness and sticking to main ideas. I am adrift in a sea of information, with no clear concept as to relevance or order. If you feel that 3 pages of minutae are vital to your cause, at least do some heavier formatting? Maybe I shouldn't complain. :P
Admittedly most of the subject matter is above your level. I agree that they should break things down for others who might not know what they are talking about.
 
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Old 02-14-2009
 
#11
Canada Kaizen
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 Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...Kaizen must really think internet = serious business...
Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

What I'd like to see in the spectator threads is basically outsiders from the debate either give comments on who is winning and losing, or specific references to ideas or issues they bring up, so as to make debates occur in here as well.

For instance:

"What Ben in his last post was blah blah blah, I believe this is a very key point that Kaizen is missing blah blah blah."

Or:

"Kaizen just blasted Ben there and Ben has no idea."

I like the latter, personally.

Ben and I discussed we think it's wise that the posters of the formal debate steer clear of the spectator thread while the debate is going on, so as to let discussions flow freely in the thread without us coming in to defend ourselves, etc.
 
Kaizen has 1,469 Posts

"Liberty, or Freedome, signifieth (properly) the absence of opposition; (by Opposition, I mean externall Impediments of motion) and may be applied no lesse to Irrationall, and Inanimate creatures, that to Rationall.

And according to this proper, and generally received meaning of the word, a free man, is he, that in those things, which by his strength and wit he is able to do, is not hindered to doe what he has a will to."

- Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan.

So close... Yet so far.
 

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Old 02-17-2009
 
#12
United States The Hawaiian
Ua mau ke ea o ka ʻāina i
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 The Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too much
Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

I think Bens view has some problems with his epistemology similar to Rands objectivism. He seems to be equating/confusing belief with knowledge (ex: how do you know men seek honor? Clearly many men do not). Just glancing over wikis article on virtue ethics I agree that we should emphasize character but I just don't see how that translates into "therefore; government."

Also the part about irony is a bit ironic, if you say that in recognizing the irony of our existence we should be cautious of our designs over other men, wouldn't prudence dictate that we get rid of government, since man does not become hyper-rational once he becomes elected to some arbitrary office created by other men?

Another problem I have with the philosophy of virtue ethics is the decision to decide what constitutes "virtue." If I possess different qualities or characteristics, or views, does that mean I am not moral? And again I don't see how any of this translates into more government or traditionalism.

Here for example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
We should instead heed the warnings of Burke and men of his disposition to trust not to the ability of our own reason to infallibly lay out a kind of Hegelian all-encompassing system of thought, but to the applied wisdom of generations expressed in our traditions; that we might achieve an imperfect but satisfactory social order that will allow us to fulfill our individuality as best as our imperfect nature will allow us to do in an imperfect world.
I disagree with this statement, I think we should always strive to improve our situations and optimize with greater efficiency. This applies to everything from the individual to government. I recognize that most humans are non-rational, ignorant, and in my opinion stupid. Therefore, these non-rational, ignorant people should not have power over me or anyone else, and thus, don't have a legitimate right to legislate their ignorant views as law. And since these people don't have a right to enforce their views on others, neither do they have the right to elect other ignorant, non-rational persons to legislate on their behalf. And the person who was elected by a combined mass of non-rational/semi-rational persons does not become hyper-rational, the math doesn't work like that. Garbage in, Garbage out.
 

Last edited by The Hawaiian; 02-17-2009 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 02-17-2009
 
#13
United States Ben
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Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

what happened to kaizen?
 
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What's happening?
I keep my dreadlocks in a napkin ring
Rap and sing
Unlike the homogenous clones
I'm in to earth tones, birth stones, and erogenous zones
The more ticklish the more you have
Sitting on the curb of what used to be the burbs
And before that was Canarcie
I'm a disturbed and bitter herb
Like saltwater and parsley

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Old 02-17-2009
 
#14
United States The Hawaiian
Ua mau ke ea o ka ʻāina i
Join Date: Jul 2006
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 The Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too muchThe Hawaiian might just love this place a little bit too much
Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

I dunno. Say Ben whats your major?
 
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Old 02-17-2009
 
#15
United States Ben
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Default Re: Spectating: Ethics - Kaizen vs. Ben

Double major in history and econ with a minor in PoliSci. But basically history at this point, I'm finished with econ and need one more class for PSC.
 

Last edited by Ben; 02-17-2009 at 09:12 PM.
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What's happening?
I keep my dreadlocks in a napkin ring
Rap and sing
Unlike the homogenous clones
I'm in to earth tones, birth stones, and erogenous zones
The more ticklish the more you have
Sitting on the curb of what used to be the burbs
And before that was Canarcie
I'm a disturbed and bitter herb
Like saltwater and parsley

Most Intelligent Debater 2008
 

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