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Old 01-20-2009
 
#61
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...eight months pregnant...

Yeah, it's way beyond the embryonic phase at that point.
 
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
You are now conflating a fetus with an embryo. I'm beginning to sense the stink of someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.
 
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#63
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Tell me why they shouldn't be conflated? What arbitrary point are you going to set to determine when an embryo ends and a fetus begins?
 
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#64
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Why do you DUMB FUCKS come into intellectual forums, spout sophistic nonesense, and take yourselves seriously? I just want to know, because honestly after encountering the Nth moron with the Nth stupid series of hasty generalizations about topics in which they know nothing about, I can honestly say I am motherfucking mystified.

Why does it matter when an embryo ends and a fetus starts? Because, you ignorant sack of shit, you cannot get stem cells from a fetus. It's not a goddamned technicality, it is THE technicality. If you cannot make the most basic statement using appropriate terms, how can anyone take your viewpoint as anything other than a byproduct of your uninformed demagoguery? I'll answer that one for you too, because you probably don't know that either. The answer is: they can't.



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Old 01-20-2009
 
#65
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I am not conflating the use of an embryo for stem cells and using a fetus to get stem cells. That is a fiction you have invented. As far as I can tell that is a straw man because I never said such a thing. My post about Scott Peterson was evidence confirming your claim that we prosecute the murder of unborn children. It's a precedent, but a precedent for what? For me, murdering a pregnant woman is two murders. What you choose to infer beyond that is not my problem, but when you're wrong it makes you look like an idiot.

The "technicality" that you dismiss is incorrect because it has nothing to do with my position. My position is that human life begins at the moment of conception, ergo it should be illegal and morally dubious to kill an embryo to get stem cells for research. Likewise it should be illegal to get an abortion. You are apparently making the claim that there is a difference between an embryo and a fetus in terms of whether it can be killed, or not. The conflation I make is that they both have the right to live, regardless of any arbitrary stages. If you believe otherwise, then I simply ask for your position as to what that stage is. Is it when the brain develops? A heartbeat? Consciousness? It's easy to make claims like that, but they need to be backed up by more than scientific, or materialistic convenience. Human life deserves consideration beyond that. Life is the the point I "conflate" an embryo and a fetus.

The rest of you prior post was fear mongering -- taking things to a logical extreme which are just that, an extreme. I'm fine with explaining a few logical consequences and I tried to argue that they would be unobjectionable for the cases you provided. But no, you wanted to attack the position that an embryo deserves to live from the most extreme angle possible. Well, whatever, you've made your point and what side your on. Now I am asking for an argument that will, with no ambiguity, delineate between when an embryo ends and the fetus begins and why life should start at one point and rather than another. By "life" I mean a right to live.
 

Last edited by WindowlessHouse; 01-20-2009 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#66
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No sir, we are discussing embryonic stem cells. We are not discussing the use of fetal stem cells. You posited that there was no ostensible difference between the two words, except for an "arbitrary point". Your halfassed hasty generalizations that you use to misrepresent your position are not my problem, they are yours. It is not a "straw man", when I point out there is a non-arbitrary, meaningful difference between an embryo and a fetus in the context of this discussion and for scientific purposes. If you wish to conflate the two on the basis of a weak implicit premise, again, that is not my responsibility to infer from your writing tone.

You seem to understand this well enough to dedicate an entire paragraph in explanation. Your problem is that this paragraph should have been included in your first post and not as a rejoinder to someone else's objection to your omissions. Adding in a straw man solely for garnish in your rebuttal is a rather weak attempt for redirecting responsibility for your failed ethymeme. If you wish to discuss the issue of life and its quality, that certainly is a reasonable diversion--but if you're going to post a news link about a fetus, don't whine when someone slams you for your lame halfassing.

As to your consequent thought killer label of my position that I am an "extremist", I can only sigh. Do you really wish to simply sit there and label those that don't agree with you and expect that to substitute an effective case for your belief? I will wait until I am convinced you have any function for debate whatsoever before I waste large chunks of my time in improving the quality of this discussion.
 
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#67
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I did not call you an extremist. Re-read what I wrote. I said that your argument was an argument from a set of extreme logical consequences, resulting from the postion that embryos have a right to live, and I am choosing not to bother to address them.

EDIT: And you're right about my half-assed response, but instead of inquring about my omission(s), you spouted off inferences.
 

Last edited by WindowlessHouse; 01-20-2009 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#68
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Forgive me, by stating that my viewpoint was extreme and inferring it is illogical, you did not by extension contend that I was an extremist. I'm not entirely sure how this negates my actual point in any ostensible way, other than a token. But I will retract my inferral, and instead pose a question for purposes of focusing.

If a child is in the womb without a brain, what is the responsibility of doctors and the parents?
 
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#69
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You were not making an extreme argument from your own positions that would earn yourself the label extremist. Instead, you were trying to argue against my position by making logical conjectures about how the world would have to be given my position. Of which, if I accepted them, would make me an extremist and thus make my position irrelevant.

Anyway, as to your question, the child in the womb without a brain would have to be aborted or removed...because it is dead. Did you mean a brain dead, vegetable type state? My intuition tells me that is up to the family whether to let it live or not.
 
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Old 01-21-2009
 
#70
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I dont think anyone would argue that it has any potential of becoming a child if the fetus in question has yet to or does not form a brain. There is no sense at all in trying to "save" this particular fetus.
 
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Old 01-21-2009
 
#71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
If a child is in the womb without a brain, what is the responsibility of doctors and the parents?
One would hope they would carry it to term, if the other organs were viable, that another child with perhaps a weak heart could live.
 
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Old 01-21-2009
 
#72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Anyway, as to your question, the child in the womb without a brain would have to be aborted or removed...because it is dead. Did you mean a brain dead, vegetable type state? My intuition tells me that is up to the family whether to let it live or not.
A child born with this condition would be born without most of its brain, with no cognisant capacity whatsoever.
Would your mind change if the child had intracranial bleeding? Such that it would be unable to process thought before it died?
Or a child born without substantial parts of its digestive tract, untreatable by surgery? They can be given nutrition via a drip, but they'll eventually start running into malnutrition problems at around a year and a half before the child died?
 

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Old 01-23-2009
 
#73
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I would preface what I say with the statement that I am not against euthanasia in dire situations where an individual is unable live an intuitive "good life" due to excess pain, or being unable to think, or being incapacitated permanently.

So in the cases you presented, if there is no way to save the child from endless agony or if it is brain dead, I could not object if the parents wanted an abortion. In fact, I would reservedly encourage the action.

But there is difference between a tragic scenario (rare) and a normal one where the child would be born healthy and not represent an overwhelming threat to the mothers life. Regardless whether it is an embryo or a fetus, that life should not be ended by a capricious decision.
 

Last edited by WindowlessHouse; 01-23-2009 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 01-23-2009
 
#74
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Given this new information, I ask you, who and what determines whether or not something is able to live "an intuitive good life"? It would seem to me that in effect, we are forced at points to decide whether or not the quality of life of one individual would be worth more or less than another. We must decide, at some point, if someone's life is worth living.

Isn't this diametrically opposed to your beliefs? That we can, in fact, "play god" and make ourselves judge, jury, and executioner to someone else's life?
 
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Old 01-23-2009
 
#75
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There's a reason I used scare quotes and that is because I didn't want to have to outline an entire philosophical view of what the "good life" is because I don't think I'm capable of that task at this moment. That's why it's intuitive. I hope you don't get annoyed that this dodges the question.

In the case of valid embryo's and fetuses, I don't think it is ethical to make a life/death decision for them before they even have a chance to experience life. Let that individual figure out what the "good life" is on their own. The point is that there are some cases where a decision must be made and some where it is better to not make a choice. (Even though this is a decision in the first place.)
 
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