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Old 01-11-2009
 
#31
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Of course it's different. It has the same genes and is part of the species, otherwise there's no resemblance and you're essentially condemning people with terminal disease to death or continuous suffering because you regard a glob of cells as the equivalent of a human being. Call it murder by definition if you want, if it doesn't have a consciousness, then you are not infringing upon its liberties by putting an end to its life. There is no pain or discomfort on the part of the embryos, and that is all that matters.
 
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Old 01-11-2009
 
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Of course it's different. It has the same genes and is part of the species, otherwise there's no resemblance and you're essentially condemning people with terminal disease to death or continuous suffering because you regard a glob of cells as the equivalent of a human being. Call it murder by definition if you want, if it doesn't have a consciousness, then you are not infringing upon its liberties by putting an end to its life. There is no pain or discomfort on the part of the embryos, and that is all that matters.
On the point of whether abortion/stem cell research that destroys the embryo is murder, there are four possibilities. I will use the word "abortion" because it is faster to type, but I can be understood to be referring to both:

A.) When the abortion occurs the organism is a human being, and the person committing the act knows that it is a human being: In this case, abortion is murder.

B.) When the abortion occurs the organism is a human being, but the person committing the act does not know it: In this case, abortion is criminal negligence that resulted in the death of an innocent.

C.) When the abortion occurs the organism is not a human being, but the person committing the act does not know it: In this case, abortion is criminal negligence, though thankfully it did not result in the death of an innocent.

D.) When the abortion occurs, the organism is not a human being, and the person committing the act knows it: The is the only possible instance in which abortion is acceptable.

Since neither our society nor medical science has any agreement on when the organism, which is clearly the same throughout its development, becomes a "human", options A and D are disqualified. Abortion is neither murder nor acceptable. It is an act of criminal negligence.
 
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Old 01-11-2009
 
#33
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The future of stem cells is that we will be able to create fully plenipotentiary stem cells from adult cells without even having to involve embryos at all.

They are right on the edge of being able to do this with cells taken from bone marrow. They can already pretty much take cells from any particular part of your body and create stem cells to create that particular part, and some cells (skin cells especially) also seem to be able to be turned into stem cells for some other organs as well. But cells from bone marrow seem to be the most promising by far for the purposes of creating stem cells indistinguishable from those in fetuses.

There has also been success in using stem cells taken from the placenta and the umbilical cord.

The trend points undeniably towards being able to get all the benefits of embryonic stem cells without destroying embryos. We can see the fanatical attention placed on "religious goons" by certain individuals both here and in general on the issue of stem cells has nothing to do with stem cells; it is simply a front to use to attack religion and the religious. Never mind that science is quickly rendering both sides' arguments irrelevant.
 
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Old 01-11-2009
 
#34
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Well the religious goons set us back by about 8 years in my opinion. I think we'd be much further along in the area of stem cell research had destroying embryos been legal all this time and not an issue. But alright Chaos/Ben... I hope you're not purposely excluding certain facts that may get in the way of everything you said above... I'll take your word for it.
 
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Old 01-11-2009
 
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The validity of your opinion is doubtful considering the relevant facts that the last eight years were the first time any federal money at all was given to stem cell research and that the federal ban on embryonic stem cell research only applied to laboratories using government money.

It's just another case of anti-religious zealots spending their time and energy on an irrelevant issue that hasn't won them any ground in their real goal, the destruction of organized religion.
 
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Old 01-11-2009
 
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On the point of whether abortion/stem cell research that destroys the embryo is murder, there are four possibilities. I will use the word "abortion" because it is faster to type, but I can be understood to be referring to both:

A.) When the abortion occurs the organism is a human being, and the person committing the act knows that it is a human being: In this case, abortion is murder.

B.) When the abortion occurs the organism is a human being, but the person committing the act does not know it: In this case, abortion is criminal negligence that resulted in the death of an innocent.

C.) When the abortion occurs the organism is not a human being, but the person committing the act does not know it: In this case, abortion is criminal negligence, though thankfully it did not result in the death of an innocent.

D.) When the abortion occurs, the organism is not a human being, and the person committing the act knows it: The is the only possible instance in which abortion is acceptable.

Since neither our society nor medical science has any agreement on when the organism, which is clearly the same throughout its development, becomes a "human", options A and D are disqualified. Abortion is neither murder nor acceptable. It is an act of criminal negligence.
Do you consider cancer to be a person? Yes, I am comparing a cancerous growth to a fetus. Both are not conscience, both are growths in the human body, both are JUST globs of cells. And dont give me the potential argument. Every embryo may have the potential for life, but what about those ones that dont get attached to the uteran wall? They are fertilized, they have every bit as much "potential" as the embryos that will be thrown away in labs. Is that murder? Every human has the potential to become a doctor, does that make them doctors? No. Abortion is fine, and embrionic research should be exploited to the fullest.
 

Last edited by Reflection; 01-11-2009 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 01-11-2009
 
#37
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Do you consider cancer to be a person?
Just a little quibble there buddy...
I want to say that this isn't really a good example to use. For example, some people could be considered a form of cancer.

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It's just another case of anti-religious zealots spending their time and energy on an irrelevant issue that hasn't won them any ground in their real goal, the destruction of organized religion.
Religion hasn't brought about anything beneficial for mankind, and in fact, in the case of Islam made the world a much shittier place to live in.
 

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Old 01-12-2009
 
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Do you consider cancer to be a person? Yes, I am comparing a cancerous growth to a fetus. Both are not conscience, both are growths in the human body, both are JUST globs of cells. And dont give me the potential argument. Every embryo may have the potential for life, but what about those ones that dont get attached to the uteran wall? They are fertilized, they have every bit as much "potential" as the embryos that will be thrown away in labs. Is that murder? Every human has the potential to become a doctor, does that make them doctors? No. Abortion is fine, and embrionic research should be exploited to the fullest.
Are a tumor and a human being the same organism? No.

Are a human being and a fetus the same organism? Yes
 
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Old 01-12-2009
 
#39
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Religion hasn't brought about anything beneficial for mankind, and in fact, in the case of Islam made the world a much shittier place to live in.
That's certainly a well-informed and rational view.
 
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Old 01-12-2009
 
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Are a tumor and a human being the same organism? No.

Are a human being and a fetus the same organism? Yes
Is cancer a part of human beings? Yes. Is a fetus? Yes.
 
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Old 01-12-2009
 
#41
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When it comes to abortion, I am completely pro choice, since otherwise you're pretty much imprisoning a woman to walk around with an unwanted child and to later give birth to it (and to this day women remain vulnerable from giving birth) for an entire 9 fucking months of her life. I think its perfectly logical to do an abortion in the first 5 months of pregnancy. If a condom breaks, the woman shouldnt be held responsible at all and basically FORCED to save another "human" being's life against her will.
 
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Old 01-12-2009
 
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Is cancer a part of human beings? Yes. Is a fetus? Yes.
That reasoning is so bad that I'm not sure what unsettles me more: the reasoning itself, or that you really believe that that quote is somehow a valid point in favor of the argument that a fetus is subhuman.

Quote:
Do you consider cancer to be a person? Yes, I am comparing a cancerous growth to a fetus. Both are not conscience, both are growths in the human body, both are JUST globs of cells. And dont give me the potential argument.
There is a reason for this pre-emptive dismissal of the "potential argument," and it is that you do not have a valid rebuttal of it.

Quote:
Every embryo may have the potential for life, but what about those ones that dont get attached to the uteran wall?

They are fertilized, they have every bit as much "potential" as the embryos that will be thrown away in labs. Is that murder?
How can it possibly be murder when it is an occurrence of nature?

The real question here is, how can you fail to make any distinction whatsoever between purposeful human action, and uncontrollable events like the fetus failing to attach to the uteran wall?

Quote:
Every human has the potential to become a doctor, does that make them doctors? No. Abortion is fine, and embrionic research should be exploited to the fullest.
Do you think that declaring that all ten year-olds should never be allowed to drive because at the moment they are ten years old and ten year-olds shouldn't drive would be a valid position?

Supporting abortion or embryonic stem cell research requires a callousness towards human life and a moral indifference or decay, or a moral presumption, that is a stain on humanity. Both abortion and embryonic stem cell research are practices supporting the proposition that human life does not possess inalienable rights that other humans cannot infringe upon for their own convenience.
 
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Old 01-12-2009
 
#43
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Is cancer a part of human beings? Yes. Is a fetus? Yes.
Wait what? This is so misguided in so many ways. You cannot possibly say that cancer is a fetus in any way, the only similarity they show is that they are both growths in or on a person.

Personally though I dislike the approach by using bone marrow, the risk of limb paralyzation is there and a few other nasty possibilities like brittle bones, non healing fractures, red blood cell production hang ups. A better method than jabbing someone with a jumbo sized needle is definitely needed.
 
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Old 01-12-2009
 
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Gotta love Babylon 5.

Anyway, I'm all for stem cell research as long as the stem cells aren't gotten from embryos.

The problem Hotel, is that you don't know when life begins. You just think you do. Since we don't know the answer to question of when life begins, the safe bet is to not kill "babies" at any stage of development, regardless of convenience.
 
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Old 01-12-2009
 
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The problem Hotel, is that you don't know when life begins. You just think you do.
The problem here is not life. We kill living things en masse all the time every day without bearing a second thought to it. Swatting a fly, eating a tomato, taking an antibiotic so you don't die from an infection, etc.

In order for you to live, something else that is alive must die. Staying alive is one big exercise in stealing the life force of other things and making it your own.

The real question, rather, is when does meaningful life begin.
 
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