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Old 01-09-2009
 
#16
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I don't value human life or even consider it to be a human being until the glob of cells turns into a fetus. I don't see any problems with harvesting large amounts of embryos in order to extract stem cells for medical purposes. I'd rather find cures to diseases and conditions that living, breathing, conscious suffering human beings to be of infinitely more worth than embryos and little clumps of cells.

If it wasn't for this stem cell issue, abortion or homosexual rights, I wouldn't have the slightest problems with Christianity.

Edit: To be honest, I don't value human beings that much to begin with as a whole. I value them as individuals based upon many factors. But as a general rule of thumb, I see the human race on this planet as the equivalent of a viral infestation.
 
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Old 01-09-2009
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotelViolet
But as a general rule of thumb, I see the human race on this planet as the equivalent of a viral infestation.
Actually, we're amongst evolution's greatest macroorganism accomplishments. No other organism is capable of controlling it's environment quite like us, and the only thing more numerous are bacteria.
 
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Old 01-09-2009
 
#18
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Yes, of course. I'm just saying that we aren't using ourselves at our fullest potential. I'd say a couple billion people on this planet are pretty useless or backwards in their thinking.
 
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Old 01-09-2009
 
#19
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Originally Posted by H0teLVi0LeT View Post
Yes, of course. I'm just saying that we aren't using ourselves at our fullest potential. I'd say a couple billion people on this planet are pretty useless or backwards in their thinking.
It's not possible to reach 100% efficiency. Also most human potential is wasted on things like subsistence farming. Imagine all the raw potential wasted over the past several thousand years of everyone just plowing a field all day. Einstein had an IQ of 200. Issac Newton and Steven Hawking similar range. Probability wise, there have been thousands, if not millions, with similar IQs. I bet you right now there is a man with an IQ of 250 working in a rice paddy somewhere in China right now.
 
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Old 01-09-2009
 
#20
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Yes but even in societies which aren't dependant on subsistence farming, plenty of people are fucking useless. I mean shit... look at all the fat kids we have playing video games in our elementary schools.
 
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Old 01-09-2009
 
#21
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Gotta fucking send them off to a mandatory workout program or something.
 
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Old 01-09-2009
 
#22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H0teLVi0LeT View Post
Yes, of course. I'm just saying that we aren't using ourselves at our fullest potential. I'd say a couple billion people on this planet are pretty useless or backwards in their thinking.
Is it crazy to think your the only sane person left? The level of arrogance in your statement is staggering. As for your comments about children, it is true that a lot of kids these days are overweight. Does that mean your right in your roid rage? I think not. If you are, and billions are useless, chances are your one of them.
 

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Old 01-10-2009
 
#23
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Please stop using the Matrix as your source for human understanding HV.

As for embryonic stem cells the thing about it is that there is no other source that offers an equally versatile cell. Embryonic stem cells taken from a blastocyst are, bar none, as blank a slate as any cell can be. New procedures can avoid an embryo's death, but it is still a considerable risk and no better than 50/50 on a very good day. Alternative "stem" cells range from adult skin tissue, to the lining of your cheek, to residual stem cells in your blood, bone marrow deposits, and basically anywhere you can think of has probably been considered at least once. What makes an embryonic stem cell so unique though is that it has a unique condition where it is as close to immortal as any cell gets and could, theoretically, continue to divide forever given proper chemical retardants that didn't destroy the cell first. Unfortunately that is impossible since the cells will only continue dividing under an exact set of conditions.

As a result of those very exact conditions it makes things difficult to create another type of cell. This is where stem cells of a different flavor come in. Find one that is only partially differentiated, say a glial cell from the brain, and you can coax it into completely differentiating into another type. Given a few years we could probably take a partially differentiated cell like that and split it off into something closely related, brain cells into spinal cord cells for example. What a leap that would be! Imagine parapelegics walking again, alzheimers being cured from from cells within the patients own brain, or defective heart valves being repaired with arterial tissue!

Stem cell research offers more potential than any other medical research i've heard of and it is a true waste to see it being impeded as much and as vehemently as it is. I share some of the concerns that others do about what is ethical and what is not, but considering that hundreds of thousands of "waste" or "reproductively non-viable" embryos are simply tossed out each year by fertility clinics I feel that those would serve no better purpose and after all they were deemed as "waste." If anything it fits the new go green fad sweeping people by storm. More money is spent storing, sustaining, and maintaining the facilities needed for these embryos that will never see any sort of use. There are literally warehouses full of dozens thousands of embryos sitting around doing nothing with a mall cop to guard them. Religious nay sayers are loud and frequent opposers of stem cell research because of their view towards an embryo being a person from the moment of conception. Pesonally I find it to be a a load of nonsense until about three weeks in and you can somewhat make out a human form. Until then its a bundle of cells.

I would like nothing more than to see all bans on embryonic stem cell reserach lifted in their entirety and allow research corportaions to actively purchase or otherwise procure, in a legal manner, stem cells of any source of their choosing. If it comes to organizations running ads offering to pay women for their embryos or going to a fertility clinic to purschase a dozen then I completely support that. Ignorance is the most harmful thing to this field of research and a vast majority of people who hear about it think, "Oh, thats the embryo killing research" or something along those lines which gets reflected in the legislation and then impedes most of the progress.
 
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Old 01-10-2009
 
#24
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Thanks for your good responses so far, guys! Remember, try not to make them too inflammatory. Even if humanity is inefficient and most of us are ignorant wastes of space... stupid people have feelings too.

So what you're all saying is, so far, there hasn't been much success with stem cells actually helping? Like it's all still potential, there isn't any past success of healing or reversing chronic disease? If that's true, shoot. I sure hope they figure this out soon. I've only got 40 years before I'll start needing a cure for cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and Alzheimer's. At least, I hope it's still 40.

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Old 01-10-2009
 
#25
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Oh no, there have been plenty of successful projects but they are mainly in the area of figuring out exactly what a stem cell is and how it works and how we can harness it for an application. Actual applications of this knowledge are, for the large part, still in experimental stages. There is one project I'm rather interested in that is working on Alzheimer's with some some promising results so far. Something like 33% of those who receive the stem cell treatment are showing notable signs of improvement.
 
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Old 01-10-2009
 
#26
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I agree with Viperjo completely except for that first flame bait against me. Too many religious and ethical wackos retarding the progression of science. If I was in charge, the human race would progress in science at 3 times the rate it is currently progressing at.
 
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Old 01-11-2009
 
#27
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Not that there is any rational basis for believing a human becomes a human when it looks like a baby. It's the same organism that it was before.
 
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Old 01-11-2009
 
#28
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For me the rationale is that it resembles what a human is or should become, therefore it is more difficult to justify snuffing it out. Arbitrary I know, but once that human resemblance is recognizable it makes all the difference in my mind. If the exact moment that consciousness is achieved or the brain has consistent activity that indicates a living being then I would say until that point it is completely ethical.
 
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Old 01-11-2009
 
#29
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Ben's a religious goon, I suggest we start snuffing out the religious goons before disposing of embryos.
 
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Old 01-11-2009
 
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So what you're saying is that by your own admission your standard is completely fucking irrational, having no basis in reason whatsoever but we have to shut up the "religious goons" who recognize the universally admitted fact that the fetus is not a new or different organism from what it was before?

Right. Stop talking.
 
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