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Old 01-04-2009
 
#16
Canada izzy
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Im not even going to bother quoting.


First, lets start with necessities. Road to nowhere, not necessary. More teachers, necessary. Gold plated police badges, not necessary. More police officers, necessary. Don't tell me we have enough money for more teachers as it stands.

In Clark County, I don't know about the rest of the country, they are on both a hiring freeze and the starts of major cuts. They expect to have 10% of the teachers this year to not be working next year. They are cutting every program, music, arts, free lunches for poor students, and even the school libraries.

In order to keep all of these things, some of them extras (music/arts) some of them VERY necessary (free lunches, libraries) they would have to go OVER budget. Which you say they should be imprisoned for. That is just great. So now instead of riding the budget line like they would have, they would have to fire more teachers so that if a school burns down, they have money to help out the emergency.



Banks are currently Low risk, low reward ventures. Essentially it is guaranteed to be safe at all times to make money. This is because the country needs to have banks around. If you let banks start to explode, it becomes High risk, low reward. The people who want to try doing stuff efficiently will think twice, this is because they are putting much, much more money at risk in order to make less money. People don't do things because they are right. They do it for money.

Under your system, Banks in America would be extinct, because you have turned a safe risk in to an extraordinarily dangerous risk. The fact that you don't see this shows that you are narrow-minded.

You want smarter people to do stupider things. That does not work for them. Noone would start another financial institution because under your plan they would not have any government support.

While the FDIC does in fact provide some insurance for lost money, it does NOT provide enough money for all money. The FDIC has limits for the sheer fact that there is only a finite amount of money, and they don't have access to a full 50%, so they can't insure 50%. There will be money lost.



Things do need to happen rapidly. A lot in life can not wait. Think of this on a much smaller scale. Apply your proposal on just an average family. The mother gives birth, so she dips into her families medical reserve. At the same time, the son breaks his leg. Both of these things won't wait. Both of these things need money.

The problem with that is, you're just going to say they should have insurance. But your proposal doesn't have insurance listed in it, because there is no insurance for when a natural disaster hits while we're at war.

Your proposal is wasteful. You have thousands of organizations having excess money, and not covering everything. You have no oversight. Insulting me has no effect, when you do not look at the full picture.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
#17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy View Post
Im not even going to bother quoting.


First, lets start with necessities. Road to nowhere, not necessary. More teachers, necessary. Gold plated police badges, not necessary. More police officers, necessary. Don't tell me we have enough money for more teachers as it stands.

In Clark County, I don't know about the rest of the country, they are on both a hiring freeze and the starts of major cuts. They expect to have 10% of the teachers this year to not be working next year. They are cutting every program, music, arts, free lunches for poor students, and even the school libraries.

In order to keep all of these things, some of them extras (music/arts) some of them VERY necessary (free lunches, libraries) they would have to go OVER budget. Which you say they should be imprisoned for. That is just great. So now instead of riding the budget line like they would have, they would have to fire more teachers so that if a school burns down, they have money to help out the emergency.
More teachers isn't necessarily required, and especially more police is not necessary. There are other options like more students per classroom or distance learning. Besides, if you cut the pork you will see there is plenty money for the necessities. It's not necessary for every student to take music or art classes, not necessary at all. Also there are other options like fundraisers and donations.

As far as the school burning down, I would have to say that a school with no insurance policy is a poorly-managed school that doesn't deserve to exist.

Not to mention this is all irrelevent anyways -- since my system allows a solution -- which is to raise a tax for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Banks are currently Low risk, low reward ventures. Essentially it is guaranteed to be safe at all times to make money. This is because the country needs to have banks around. If you let banks start to explode, it becomes High risk, low reward. The people who want to try doing stuff efficiently will think twice, this is because they are putting much, much more money at risk in order to make less money. People don't do things because they are right. They do it for money.
How is allowing the inefficient banks to fail going to affect deposits which are guranteed by the FDIC? Allowing the inefficient banks to fail does not affect the FDIC gurantee, so you are just pulling that out of your ass and trying to repeat your perception of what you think the logic of the bailout is. You figure "well they wouldn't have done it unless we needed it!" By that idiotic logic there is no such thing as a bad idea since it wouldn't have happened otherwise!

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Under your system, Banks in America would be extinct, because you have turned a safe risk in to an extraordinarily dangerous risk. The fact that you don't see this shows that you are narrow-minded.
The fact that you don't know what the hell you are talking about is proof that you've been brainwashed. You are a sheep, now go to the pasture!

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
You want smarter people to do stupider things. That does not work for them. Noone would start another financial institution because under your plan they would not have any government support.


Financial institutions do not require government support to operate. Just because things currently function in this manner does not mean they necessarily have to. There could be a demand for more open accounting practices and gold-backed reserves for lending. The best thing the government could do to help would be to prosecute bankers who steal money or lie about their gurantees.

Anybody who put their money into another money-pit bank (fractional reserve) after this crisis deserves to have their money squandered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
While the FDIC does in fact provide some insurance for lost money, it does NOT provide enough money for all money. The FDIC has limits for the sheer fact that there is only a finite amount of money, and they don't have access to a full 50%, so they can't insure 50%. There will be money lost.
Oh well, thats a problem with fractional reserve banking and poor financial skills, not my system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Things do need to happen rapidly. A lot in life can not wait. Think of this on a much smaller scale. Apply your proposal on just an average family. The mother gives birth, so she dips into her families medical reserve. At the same time, the son breaks his leg. Both of these things won't wait. Both of these things need money.

The problem with that is, you're just going to say they should have insurance. But your proposal doesn't have insurance listed in it, because there is no insurance for when a natural disaster hits while we're at war.

Your proposal is wasteful. You have thousands of organizations having excess money, and not covering everything. You have no oversight. Insulting me has no effect, when you do not look at the full picture.
I have looked at the full picture. If we go to war we need a war tax. Natural disaster gets a natural disaster tax, and both are (in theory) temporary. Where is the problem, again?
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
#18
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It's a very good idea. There could conceivably be some instances where the government needs to go into debt, but this could be addressed by free banking. Without a monopoly on the money supply, the government would need to go into debt to actual outside organizations, who would have an incentive to get their money back. And the government would have an incentive to pay them back, since it would need to maintain a reputation with them in order to borrow again in the future.

Overall it's a very solid plan. The challenge would be getting it implemented in the current political culture.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
#19
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I believe this is a good idea. I mean, are taxes are used to buy the President his golf carts. I fully support this plan.

But, what would happen to the other taxes? Social Security (we never needed it but still), income and others like that.
 
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Old 01-05-2009
 
#20
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post

Not to mention this is all irrelevent anyways -- since my system allows a solution -- which is to raise a tax for it.
The point of all my posts can be summed up like this. You can not see into the future. You do not know every possible expense. Raising a tax as soon as you run into something is not a viable option all the time. Talking absolutes. Some times it will work. But it won't ALWAYS work. It only takes one situation to cause a mass-panic.

Also, I am not touching the more students per classroom after going to a school that averaged 40/class, and had a 25% dropout rate. Thats a subject for another thread.
 
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Old 01-05-2009
 
#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy

The point of all my posts can be summed up like this. You can not see into the future. You do not know every possible expense. Raising a tax as soon as you run into something is not a viable option all the time. Talking absolutes. Some times it will work. But it won't ALWAYS work. It only takes one situation to cause a mass-panic.
Fearmongering bullshit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Also, I am not touching the more students per classroom after going to a school that averaged 40/class, and had a 25% dropout rate. Thats a subject for another thread.
I took an intro to logic class 2 1/2 years ago that was taught in the theatre with about 400 students in the theatre.
 
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Old 01-05-2009
 
#22
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
Fearmongering bullshit.



I took an intro to logic class 2 1/2 years ago that was taught in the theatre with about 400 students in the theatre.
Not touching the education topic, thats for another thread.

Also, dismissing points as "fearmongering bullshit" and not actually trying to find ways around the points is not only stupid, but irresponsible. If you only assume the best in every situation, then communism is a great idea. Past experiences have shown that communism has failed multiple times.

Once again, please dont dismiss the example, but the point being expressed behind the example.
 
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Old 01-05-2009
 
#23
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It's fearmongering bullshit. "It only takes one situation to cause mass-panic." So what, it only takes a thousand new taxes to cause a revolution. My system does not have to be perfect to be superior to the current system, just better. Try again.
 
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Old 01-06-2009
 
#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
It's fearmongering bullshit. "It only takes one situation to cause mass-panic." So what, it only takes a thousand new taxes to cause a revolution. My system does not have to be perfect to be superior to the current system, just better. Try again.
If your system implodes and breaks the economy then yes, it really only takes one. If you are insulted by commentary, then you really shouldn't be posting your ideas on the internet.

I am sorry your idea is not perfect, and, I would not support it.
 

Last edited by izzy; 01-06-2009 at 12:18 AM. Reason: however was a terrible word to use, lol
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Old 01-06-2009
 
#25
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Like I said, my system does not have to be perfect, just better than the current systme, which it is.
 
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Old 01-08-2009
 
#26
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
Everything needs a waiting period. The government does not need quick money.
People complain about the efficiency of the government every day all the time. Your solution? More red tape, more waiting periods, more processes--this time with criminal penalties! Solution to inefficiency and beauracracy: Waiting periods. Next up: fucking for virginity.
Quote:
The economy would recover. It's ok to let the banks collapse, they will be replaced by more efficient banks with more sound lending practices.
Unsupported assertion is unsupported. What do you propose the 330M frozen Americans do with themselves while they're waiting for the economy to magically recover? The economy isn't a mythical bird from yore, it isn't going to magically ressurect itself on the burning ashes of the old.

Someone might listen to your ideas when they aren't rife with such assertions as "a complete freeze on lending is OK for 5 years, because newer better banks will magically appear".
 
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Old 01-13-2009
 
#27
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Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
People complain about the efficiency of the government every day all the time. Your solution? More red tape, more waiting periods, more processes--this time with criminal penalties! Solution to inefficiency and beauracracy: Waiting periods. Next up: fucking for virginity.
I disagree with your assertion that we should make it easier for the government to be "more efficient" at spending our tax dollars. Just reduced. I don't care if they've come up with a more clever way to spend a trillion dollars, I'd rather they simply not spend it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ga
Unsupported assertion is unsupported. What do you propose the 330M frozen Americans do with themselves while they're waiting for the economy to magically recover? The economy isn't a mythical bird from yore, it isn't going to magically ressurect itself on the burning ashes of the old.

Someone might listen to your ideas when they aren't rife with such assertions as "a complete freeze on lending is OK for 5 years, because newer better banks will magically appear".
We know it works, in fact it's the best system ever created.

Your system on the other hand has failed monumentally in every country that it's been tried in. I don't have to prove that capitalism works, it's self-evident. I also don't have to prove that socialism has been a total failure all throughout history -- just open a book.

I know this might seem like "magic" to you but thats because you don't understand anything relating to economics and specifically austrian theory.
 
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Old 01-13-2009
 
#28
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You take certain parts of an argument and twist it completely around. You don't so much as summarize as you do butcher it. You completely ignored the fact that the government, as is, is not efficient. You obviously aren't stupid, but after reading your posts, you make people who don't know better into stupid people, and that is very wrong.

The post quoted deserves several sections of one post just to show -- I don't even know how to explain it without being insulting.
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I disagree with your assertion that we should make it easier for the government to be "more efficient" at spending our tax dollars. Just reduced. I don't care if they've come up with a more clever way to spend a trillion dollars, I'd rather they simply not spend it.
You have quoted part of a statement. By saying this, you are saying that the person you quoted is in favor of excess spending. He did not say that. He did not say anything close to that. You aren't just putting words in his mouth, you are creating another mouth in which to put words.

Obligatory Wikipedia link. It wouldnt be a post from you if there wasn't one.
Quote:
Your system on the other hand has failed monumentally in every country that it's been tried in. I don't have to prove that capitalism works, it's self-evident. I also don't have to prove that socialism has been a total failure all throughout history -- just open a book.
You are now calling the bailouts socialism (It is socialistic behavior, but it did not turn America in to a socialist country). That is a hyperbolic statement. You are also claiming that your system is now an entirely new economic system for America, and the way you word this you make it sound as if we are currently socialists. You also use scare tactics to make sure your post sounds better than everyone else's.

Your system is not capitalism. Your system is making the government ever more difficult to have things happen. Of course you don't have to prove that capitalism works, because that is not what we are arguing about!

One last thing on this note, you should really read the bible. Specifically the New Testament. You will be very surprised to see that Jesus thinks Socialism would work and he supports redistribution of wealth.
Quote:
I know this might seem like "magic" to you but thats because you don't understand anything relating to economics and specifically austrian theory.
Obligatory insult. This is how all of your posts are structured. You put words that aren't there in to the argument. You use Hyperbole. You then use scare tactics. You make up things completely. And then you finish off with an insult.

You turn intellectual debate into a 14-year-old girl fighting with her parents because she can't stay out past 11. She makes up facts (All her other friends can), she uses hyperbole (The worst parents ever!), she uses scare tactics (She's going to run away), and then finishing off with an insult (She hates her parents and wish they would go die!). And yes, I did just equate you to a 14-year-old girl.

See, now I'm glad I waited til now to make mention of the fact that your logic class had 400 kids in it, and you seemed to have slept through all of the most important parts. Maybe you would have taken more away from the class if there were 30.

There is a link to fallacies on your favorite website in my signature. Maybe you could actually learn something from other people's links instead of just ignoring everything.

----
If you quote this, then I will just assume you didn't read anything I wrote and instead wrote another formulaic post of yours. In which case, I will just leave this thread, as there will be no point in trying to argue with you.
----

Noone is arguing your side arguments (except for the school one but thats just because education is a hot topic with me, but I will not bring it up in this thread anymore, you are welcome to PM me about it or create a new thread). We aren't arguing over capitalism vs. socialism. The argument is, why is making an already inefficient entity even more inefficient a good thing?
 

Last edited by izzy; 01-13-2009 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 01-13-2009
 
#29
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Originally Posted by izzy View Post
You take certain parts of an argument and twist it completely around. You don't so much as summarize as you do butcher it. You completely ignored the fact that the government, as is, is not efficient. You obviously aren't stupid, but after reading your posts, you make people who don't know better into stupid people, and that is very wrong.
You don't know better, and you are a stupid person. Hope that clears up any confusion you might have had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
You have quoted part of a statement. By saying this, you are saying that the person you quoted is in favor of excess spending. He did not say that. He did not say anything close to that. You aren't just putting words in his mouth, you are creating another mouth in which to put words.
Yes he did say exactly that. The whole point of my system was to make it more difficult for the government to spend money. Anything making this process "more efficient" is by definition speeding it up, which means money gets spent easier and faster. I'm sorry you weren't able to catch on to this obvious fact, but you are arguing out of your weight class right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Obligatory Wikipedia link. It wouldnt be a post from you if there wasn't one.


http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...-comeback.aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
You are now calling the bailouts socialism (It is socialistic behavior, but it did not turn America in to a socialist country). That is a hyperbolic statement. You are also claiming that your system is now an entirely new economic system for America, and the way you word this you make it sound as if we are currently socialists. You also use scare tactics to make sure your post sounds better than everyone else's.

Your system is not capitalism. Your system is making the government ever more difficult to have things happen. Of course you don't have to prove that capitalism works, because that is not what we are arguing about!
This is socialism by the common definition we use here on blizzforums (ex: Obamas socialism, socialist health care, etc). Your ignorance to these facts is not cause for concern since I wasn't talking to you. The bailout is indeed socialism, and it's also something that Karl Marx predicted (proposal number 5) and would smile upon.

Nobody here will usually argue that the bailout is not socialism, just that it is some bizarre form of "justified socialism." Regardless, it's anti-capitalist. My system is indeed capitalism, or "more capitalist" because it makes it 10x more difficult for the government to intervene into the economy. Capitalism requires a non-interventionist government. The bailout is government intervention (socialism). Yes, we are a socialist nation. It's a different form that us Austrians like to call "American socialism" and it's unique in the world. Much like Germans had "national socialism."

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Obligatory insult. This is how all of your posts are structured. You put words that aren't there in to the argument. You use Hyperbole. You then use scare tactics. You make up things completely. And then you finish off with an insult.

You turn intellectual debate into a 14-year-old girl fighting with her parents because she can't stay out past 11. She makes up facts (All her other friends can), she uses hyperbole (The worst parents ever!), she uses scare tactics (She's going to run away), and then finishing off with an insult (She hates her parents and wish they would go die!). And yes, I did just equate you to a 14-year-old girl.

See, now I'm glad I waited til now to make mention of the fact that your logic class had 400 kids in it, and you seemed to have slept through all of the most important parts. Maybe you would have taken more away from the class if there were 30.

There is a link to fallacies on your favorite website in my signature. Maybe you could actually learn something from other people's links instead of just ignoring everything.

----
If you quote this, then I will just assume you didn't read anything I wrote and instead wrote another formulaic post of yours. In which case, I will just leave this thread, as there will be no point in trying to argue with you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
The argument is, why is making an already inefficient entity even more inefficient a good thing?
Because it makes it much more difficult for the government to tax and spend money, and is therefore more conducive to a capitalist system and harder for socialist policies to be implemented.
 
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Old 01-16-2009
 
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
Yes he did say exactly that. The whole point of my system was to make it more difficult for the government to spend money. Anything making this process "more efficient" is by definition speeding it up, which means money gets spent easier and faster. I'm sorry you weren't able to catch on to this obvious fact, but you are arguing out of your weight class right now.
No, actually, I didn't. As Izzy pointed out, you are putting words in my mouth.
Quote:
Because it makes it much more difficult for the government to tax and spend money, and is therefore more conducive to a capitalist system and harder for socialist policies to be implemented.
I think I see the problem, now. Whereas I think the goal of a government is well-placed, efficient spending of money, your goal is apparently just to make the government as inefficient as possible so as to make it barely functional. Reasons for opposing your half-witted scheme are fairly salient.
Quote:
Your system on the other hand has failed monumentally in every country that it's been tried in. I don't have to prove that capitalism works, it's self-evident. I also don't have to prove that socialism has been a total failure all throughout history -- just open a book.
If America has been failing for the past 50 years, I think the whole world could stand some fail. While you're referencing books, I suggest you move out of the "Theory" section of economics and move into the "history" section of America. I don't particularly see any clauses that lead to a world superpower via failsystem written by Marx or any other of these egomaniacal wackjobs you're pointing at as infalliable prophets.
Quote:
I know this might seem like "magic" to you but thats because you don't understand anything relating to economics and specifically austrian theory.
I'd be more convinced you knew what you're talking about if you weren't ostensibly attempting to copy Kaizen.
 

Last edited by GenocideAlive; 01-16-2009 at 12:08 PM.
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