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Old 12-24-2008
 
#31
United States The Hawaiian
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No he doesn't have a point. If Americans aren't willing to fight for their freedom then they don't deserve it, period. Same goes for anyone.
 
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Old 12-24-2008
 
#32
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Okay courage isn't a requisite for happiness in my mind.
 
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"Liberty, or Freedome, signifieth (properly) the absence of opposition; (by Opposition, I mean externall Impediments of motion) and may be applied no lesse to Irrationall, and Inanimate creatures, that to Rationall.

And according to this proper, and generally received meaning of the word, a free man, is he, that in those things, which by his strength and wit he is able to do, is not hindered to doe what he has a will to."

- Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan.

So close... Yet so far.
 

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Old 12-24-2008
 
#33
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Then you're just fortunate enough to be surrounded by people who are courageous enough to fight for your freedom. If someone denies your freedom and you do nothing about it --especially if you don't believe in government, and thus police forces -- then there is nothing you can do about it. You just won't be free or happy.
 
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Old 12-25-2008
 
#34
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At what point can one claim the government does not represent them? The government certainly does not represent me, but I don't think it justifies a revolution just yet.

The colonists were denied rights previously enumerated by Parliment; representation, specifically, thus the revolt. I'm not sure if the citizens are legally permitted to overthrow their government violently just yet.

Taken to its logical conclusion, DE, mobs would be overthrowing the de facto government routinely and we'd end up like some unstable European Asshole of a country like Italy or something. I think a large amount of patience is involved when dealing with Uncle Sam, and he should be endured until he becomes unbearably tyrannical.

 
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Old 12-25-2008
 
#35
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Define "unbearably tyrannical."
 
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Old 12-25-2008
 
#36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
No he doesn't have a point. If Americans aren't willing to fight for their freedom then they don't deserve it, period. Same goes for anyone.
Look folks, this is one of DE's oneliners. It does well in politics to garner votes, because it does sound so damn good and true, but is it?

Focus on the world 'willing' and let's look at it from the perspective of someone in a wheelchair. He's willing to fight, yet he knows he doesn't stand a chance physically, seeing that certain death is in store for him if he does, he becomes unwilling to fight.
According to DE this man does not deserves any freedom. He is not willing, right?

Willing to fight for freedom is highly dependent on the expected outcome. One is only willing to undertake an action if the action will lead to improvement compared to the current position. According to DE anyone with a negative expected outcome is not deserving of freedom, because the willingness to fight does not exist in them. This even though they would prefer the state of freedom to the state of servitude., they simply do not prefer the state of dead to the state of being alive.

DE implicitly affirms here the 'might is right' doctrine. If you have the might it is right and if you don't you are not deserving of any right. I wouldn't go as far as comparing him to the fascist movements, though he is pretty damn close.
 
 

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Old 12-25-2008
 
#37
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Pretty damn close? He's all for fascism as long as the people he'd be trying to stomp with his jackboot are of similar opinion to myself. Go find him a blackshirt and give him a Mussolini hat, DE's a fascist. There's no doubt about it. His only conception of liberty is "what I say."

Quote:
Blah blah blah, Mr. "Im gonna join the military when as soon as I turn 18" yet when the time comes realizes he just doesn't got what it takes.
Hahahaha you got owned bitch. You're a fascist fifth columnist and you just got owned, get over it.

Hey weren't you supposed to get deployed in May? I guess the Coast Guard is where you go if you want to brag that you're in the military but don't want to actually, you know, be in the military, right?
 

Last edited by Chaos; 12-25-2008 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 12-25-2008
 
#38
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I'm not sure if I can define "unbearably tyrannical", DE. I'm certain that the Founding Fathers would not permit revolution over the slightest case of of governmental non-representation. Thus I think to some degree Hobbes is right: we engage in a social contract with the State and are forbidden to some extent to rebel, such rebellion being immoral.

At some point the rebellion becomes our moral duty. When does this occur?

 
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Old 12-25-2008
 
#39
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Both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution set out pretty specifically when altering the form of government is warranted.
 
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Old 12-25-2008
 
#40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaDaimon View Post
Look folks, this is one of DE's oneliners. It does well in politics to garner votes, because it does sound so damn good and true, but is it?

Focus on the world 'willing' and let's look at it from the perspective of someone in a wheelchair. He's willing to fight, yet he knows he doesn't stand a chance physically, seeing that certain death is in store for him if he does, he becomes unwilling to fight.
According to DE this man does not deserves any freedom. He is not willing, right?

Willing to fight for freedom is highly dependent on the expected outcome. One is only willing to undertake an action if the action will lead to improvement compared to the current position. According to DE anyone with a negative expected outcome is not deserving of freedom, because the willingness to fight does not exist in them. This even though they would prefer the state of freedom to the state of servitude., they simply do not prefer the state of dead to the state of being alive.

DE implicitly affirms here the 'might is right' doctrine. If you have the might it is right and if you don't you are not deserving of any right. I wouldn't go as far as comparing him to the fascist movements, though he is pretty damn close.
No thats false, people were still empowered at the voting booth. We as a country chose not to have freedom so I can't feel sorry for anybody. We brought this upon ourselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Hahahaha you got owned bitch. You're a fascist fifth columnist and you just got owned, get over it.

Hey weren't you supposed to get deployed in May? I guess the Coast Guard is where you go if you want to brag that you're in the military but don't want to actually, you know, be in the military, right?
Why didn't you join again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution set out pretty specifically when altering the form of government is warranted.
Yeah, it reads specifically:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

Well, it hasn't gotten to that point entirely yet. I still think America is better off than a lot of other countries, but we are headed down the wrong path and I don't like it. Think about how many civil liberties we've already lost in the name of war. War on terrorism, war on drugs, it doesn't really matter. The War on Poverty was used as a pretext for using eminent domain and forcing people to give up their private property. All these "wars" are just a way for government to legitimize what would otherwise be seen as contemptable.
 
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Old 12-25-2008
 
#41
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Quote:
Why didn't you join again?
Hey man how's that deployment going? You remember the one you said you were going on in May?

Now why don't you address how you're a fascist who has said he'd love it if the president ordered him to repress his fellow citizens yet you claim to be one of the few True Believers in Liberty around here?

Quote:
Well, it hasn't gotten to that point entirely yet. I still think America is better off than a lot of other countries, but we are headed down the wrong path and I don't like it. Think about how many civil liberties we've already lost in the name of war. War on terrorism, war on drugs, it doesn't really matter. The War on Poverty was used as a pretext for using eminent domain and forcing people to give up their private property. All these "wars" are just a way for government to legitimize what would otherwise be seen as contemptable.
What the fuck do you care about liberty and restraining government? You're all for the violation of the Passe Comitatus Act and the deployment of American soldiers inside the continental United States for the purpose of repressing the American people, you've said so several times that you'd love it if "President Obama" ordered you to do so.

So why should anyone believe that you give two fucks about liberty? You're a fascist just like the rest of the holier-than-thou "Liberty" lovers who jumped on Ron Paul's cock. American Fascism is what the "Revolution" really is.
 
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Old 12-25-2008
 
#42
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Since when is arresting and imprisoning rebel scum like yourself "fascism?" You were the one talking about rebelling, and I said I'd love to be the one to lock your ass up in a heartbeat. Thats not fascism, thats patriotism .
 
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Old 12-27-2008
 
#43
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The coast gaurd is a joke when compared to the Marines, Navy, Army, or Airforce. Its also worse than being in the reserves for any of these. It is all well and fine you decided to serve your country, but dont act like your a military man.
Quote:
No he doesn't have a point. If Americans aren't willing to fight for their freedom then they don't deserve it, period. Same goes for anyone.
Freedom includes not having to be willing to fight. There are also more ways than one to fight for freedom. One does not have to take up arms to put down fascist ideals. Simple lip service is often more than enough. If there ever comes a time that America must cleanse herself of her own fascist government, I am certain it would happen. Either through political means or all out rebellion.
Quote:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "
It is a right. Not an obligation. Your statement about people not willing to take up arms is proven false.
Quote:
Well, it hasn't gotten to that point entirely yet. I still think America is better off than a lot of other countries, but we are headed down the wrong path and I don't like it. Think about how many civil liberties we've already lost in the name of war. War on terrorism, war on drugs, it doesn't really matter. The War on Poverty was used as a pretext for using eminent domain and forcing people to give up their private property. All these "wars" are just a way for government to legitimize what would otherwise be seen as contemptable.
The polarization this country has is surely more than enough to stop any political party from overstepping there bounds and stomping on our liberties. The Patriot Act is a horrible thing, which I am sure will be proven unconstitutional when its time comes. Let the system work, it always has.
 
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Old 01-06-2009
 
#44
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Reflection,

I would point out this quote from later in the next paragraph of the DoI

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."

The founding fathers believed that throwing off the shackles of tyranny (violently if absolutely necessary) was the right and obligation of free men.
 
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Old 01-07-2009
 
#45
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Simply that the government is not representing the people does not necessarily justify overthrowing it. The government's obligation is to enforce justice. It is possible that the government could be on the side of justice and the people against it. For example, we can conceive of a situation in which the people demanded the murder of all the Jews, but the government was protecting them, at risk of violent revolution. In this case, even if the government is not representing the will of the people, the people have no right to overthrow it, as they are at odds with justice, which the government is upholding.

This isn't to comment on anything occurring in American politics right now, only to illustrate that the government's just authority is not derived from the will or consent of the people. The authority of a party to govern is judged by their capability and willingness to uphold justice relative to other prospective governors.
 

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