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Old 12-11-2008
 
#1
United States The Hawaiian
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Default If a government does not represent the people, do they have an obligation to obey?

I've come to the conclusion that we are not free and that our representatives do not represent us. Most people opposed the bailout and even the most recent car bailout but they passed anyways. This is proof positive that the government does not represent the will of the people. So do the people have an obligation to recognize the authority of the government as legitimate?

I say probably not. That said I would probably still side with the government, but at least I can empathize with the other guys.
 
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Old 12-11-2008
 
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"Legitimacy" unfortunately comes from Cronoss' idea that "might is." Might doesn't make right, simply that whomever has the might simply controls the situation.

The government is quickly becoming disaligned with the people, however, and soon this disalignment will reveal itself in more dangerous ways than we currently see.
 
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"Liberty, or Freedome, signifieth (properly) the absence of opposition; (by Opposition, I mean externall Impediments of motion) and may be applied no lesse to Irrationall, and Inanimate creatures, that to Rationall.

And according to this proper, and generally received meaning of the word, a free man, is he, that in those things, which by his strength and wit he is able to do, is not hindered to doe what he has a will to."

- Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan.

So close... Yet so far.
 

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Old 12-11-2008
 
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Old 12-11-2008
 
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See I agree completely hv, but this is more a problem for you than me. You see if we do become a police state I'm in the military so I'll be on the same side as the government. You on the other hand will be just another worthless civilian, and by "worthless" I mean your life has little to no value. It's true that democracy is not the best form of government, and that being a democracy does not make you free, but this is something else completely.

In fact I don't know why I'm so concerned about taxes and spending anyways. Being in the lowest income bracket I don't pay taxes apparently (but thats not true, since I don't ever get back what I payed in). In the end, it's the rich who are paying most of the burden to bail out.....the super rich. So who gives a shit? Fuck em, I agree hv, fuck them. They are pretty much bailing themselves out since they pay all the taxes anyways. It's like a bizarre system of wealth redistribution only it resdistributes from the wealthy to the superwealthy in order to "save" our system and prevent a collapse (and by "collapse" they mean anything that would change the current system in any way).

So yeah, fuck the people hv, I agree. I'm not trying to be a smartass either man, I agree completely. I don't think my previous idealism is even worth fighting for anymore. I think nationalism is an end in itself. The purpose of our existence should be to continue our existence, and it is to this end that I will fight.
 
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Old 12-11-2008
 
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Old 12-11-2008
 
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Can we just put shares of America on a forex market already? Problem solved.
 
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Old 12-11-2008
 
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If a democratic government fails to represent the people then it is voted out of office. People have an obligation to adhere to governmental authority if two standards are met. One: that the authority's commands are valid under the laws of the nation, and two: that the authority's commands are just.

I think that a mass refusal to pay taxes next spring would be a wonderful idea, too bad most people won't go for it.

Now as for this nonsense about going a step beyond civil disobedience, nonsense is what it is, and nonsense it shall remain. Electing one group of bad politicians does not a broken system make. Hell, the British managed to lose the American colonies, be battered by Napoleon for a decade before Wellington took charge, and the present system of government they have today is more or less the same as it was then, the main change being universal suffrage and redrawing of parliamentary district borders.

I understand that for some people it's just beyond them and for some people, quite naturally at their age, six months seems almost an impossibly long time, much less six years. See where the United States is in 2015 and we'll see if this nonsense the five percenters are spouting has any worth.

Quote:
Who says I will be "another worthless civilian"? You're not one to decide upon my future objectives.
Who says this entire thread isn't a steaming pile of stupid bullshit? Stupid fantasies about an American police state and the American system of government being broken and other such idiocy?

No one does, that's who.

Quote:
I mean seriously... take a look at Russia or China. Sure there may be government corruption and needless government control in some areas. But are they really such fucking terrible places to reside in today? I'd like to think not. If you mix in a little bit of our technological advantage and culture into those 2 countries, I think they'd be better off than us.
Are you serious? You're fucking insane. Go do some research on how the average Russian or Chinese lives. Please. For God's sake.

Quote:
However, I see no reason why the United States can't be a lot like China while remaining a modernized nation and maybe without the needless censorship.
You want to be like China how? Presenting yourself as rising power whose continued growth is inevitable, while your economy is built on a jerry-rigged system of manipulating the value of your currency so your country is cheap to invest production in? Or maybe as the rising power with the water supply that is on the verge of being too polluted and too over-exploited to continue providing enough water for drinking and farming in sufficient quantity for your populace's needs. Or maybe as the rising power that has somewhere around 70,000 serious acts of violent civil disturbance a year. Or maybe a rising power that is so corrupt at the local and regional level that the citizens regularly riot over it. Or maybe a rising power that brutally represses a religion (Christianity) that is spreading like wildfire through your citizenry, a religion that coincidentally (I'm sure) contradicts almost everything your government preaches.

If you want to have $2 trillion in cash reserves that won't do jack when the water runs out, you go be like China pal.
 
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Old 12-12-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
If a democratic government fails to represent the people then it is voted out of office.
False, as we have demonstrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
I understand that for some people it's just beyond them and for some people, quite naturally at their age, six months seems almost an impossibly long time, much less six years. See where the United States is in 2015 and we'll see if this nonsense the five percenters are spouting has any worth.
I know, just like the "nonsense" Ron Paul was talking in 2006 about the economic crisis that we were going to face, and his spot-on predictions about the government bailing out the financial industry with tax dollars, all of which came true, and all of which you denied in their entirety.

It's a safe assumption to make that when Chaos says something is "nonsense" it's probably 100% accurate, and everything Chaos is saying is just that, nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
If you want to have $2 trillion in cash reserves that won't do jack when the water runs out, you go be like China pal.
With that amount of money they could buy the major US banks. Our government bought em for less than that!
 
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Old 12-12-2008
 
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
I've come to the conclusion that we are not free and that our representatives do not represent us. Most people opposed the bailout and even the most recent car bailout but they passed anyways. This is proof positive that the government does not represent the will of the people. So do the people have an obligation to recognize the authority of the government as legitimate?

I say probably not. That said I would probably still side with the government, but at least I can empathize with the other guys.
Just as an aside, the auto bailout was killed in the Senate earlier this evening because they couldn't gather the sixty votes necessary to block a filibuster.
 
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Old 12-12-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
I've come to the conclusion that we are not free and that our representatives do not represent us. Most people opposed the bailout and even the most recent car bailout but they passed anyways. This is proof positive that the government does not represent the will of the people. So do the people have an obligation to recognize the authority of the government as legitimate?

I say probably not. That said I would probably still side with the government, but at least I can empathize with the other guys.
How does our representative not listening to us effect our freedom?
 
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Old 12-12-2008
 
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Old 12-12-2008
 
#12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hv
Ok fine, maybe not China considering how 1/3 of its population largely located in the western provinces lives in extreme poverty. But Russia I wouldn't think so much. People in Russia are generally living a more or less modern lifestyle now. It's certainly not on par with the United States, but it's definitely not the shithole it was in the 90s. I don't think the "average Russian" is all that bad off today.
America is much better, especially in regards to civil liberties and police tolerance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hv

I think you misunderstood. I meant more along the lines of dealing with civil unrest and domestic terrorism. I fear that the United States will become ill equipped to deal with such threats if the anti war crowd and defeatists gain momentum and vote in retarded pacifist politicians and appeasers. Obviously China will not fare well when it comes to the environment or energy, that's a given, but I think they do a good job in controlling occasional rioting and civil disturbances brought on by Muslims in its western provinces.
Why would the anti-war crowd be against tracking down and arresting domestic terrorists? Of course, we might be opposed to any kind of "war on domestic terrorism" if that involves destroying our civil liberties to catch a few terrorists. I think the FBI is doing a great job keeping tabs on domestic "terrorists" (if they are terrorists then they would be arrested, but you seem to be using the word "terrorist" and "Muslims" synonymously.

Russias domestic terrorist policy is to engage in acts of domestic terrorism and blame them on Chechen rebels. Go do some research on the Moscow apartment buildings. How convenient that just days after a bomb went off in another apartment building a few blocks away the FSB decided to conduct an "excercise" in planting explosives which they never told anyone about until after they got caught. The police caught 2 FSB agents planting bombs in an apartment building, arrested them, and it's at this point that they produced government ID's. The very next day Putin (who was unknown at this time) called in and ordered them to be released, and concocted this unrealistic scenario of them "training" to plant bombs in the middle of chaos and explosions going on all throughout the area.

The FSB is a terrorist organization, and I dread the day the FBI adopts similar tactics.
 
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Old 12-12-2008
 
#13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Just as an aside, the auto bailout was killed in the Senate earlier this evening because they couldn't gather the sixty votes necessary to block a filibuster.
On another side note, how much pork do you think they need to add to pass it on a second try?
 
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Old 12-12-2008
 
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On another side note, how much pork do you think they need to add to pass it on a second try?
None, I think Bush is pushing to get the 14bn taking from the 700bn that was to be used for the banks.
 
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Old 12-12-2008
 
#15
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Who cares, why should we choose banks over car companies? I say it should just go to whoever. At this point, who really gives a fuck?
 
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