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Old 12-06-2008
 
#31
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Again, I ask proponents of the Death Penalty, or at least those who still want SOME form of it around (from what I gather: DSquid, Windowless, HV, etc.): How do we fix the current system, the problems being costs, racism, classism, etc. And of course, the problem of killing an innocent man with no way to "make up for it".

Whether or not you believe the death penalty to be morally justifiable doesn't matter for that question. The system is broken. How do we fix it?
 
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Old 12-06-2008
 
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Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
Again, I ask proponents of the Death Penalty, or at least those who still want SOME form of it around (from what I gather: DSquid, Windowless, HV, etc.): How do we fix the current system, the problems being costs, racism, classism, etc. And of course, the problem of killing an innocent man with no way to "make up for it".

Whether or not you believe the death penalty to be morally justifiable doesn't matter for that question. The system is broken. How do we fix it?
There is no way to fix it. Humans (and especially Americans) are violent, xenophobic and greedy. Just because I believe in a true death penalty doesn't mean I think its a wise idea to implement it in a futilely corrupt legal system.
 
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Old 12-06-2008
 
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Old 12-06-2008
 
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Old 12-07-2008
 
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First:

God what a boring tired old discussion.

Second:

Quote:
the problems being costs
Cost is no concern in the pursuit of justice when the crime is murder.

Simple solution: streamline the appeals process so death row inmates run through their appeals in five years instead of twenty. Give death penalty appeals top priority on the court docket.

Quote:
racism
These misleading arguments are boring. Blacks commit more first-degree murder than whites. I don't care if "race is the leading indicator" blah blah blah correlation is not causation.

Anyway that is not an argument against the death penalty itself it is an argument against racism. None of these anti-death penalty arguments are actually arguments against the death penalty, they are a presentation of the perceived inefficiencies of the death penalty system that are portrayed as inherent and unsolvable so let's end the death penalty. This is of course total nonsense.

Quote:
classism
I'm sorry but this is 2008, the argument that my lawyer sucked in a death penalty case because I'm poor and he's a public defender so I was wrongly convicted rings hollow. You don't see any stories about guys convicted of capital murder from a few years ago to now being exonerated, are you? All these cases where death row inmates are being exonerated are from the 70s, 80s, early 90s, when DNA evidence either didn't exist or was brand new.

In any case we have yet another easy solution to this alleged problem: require members of the local bar to make themselves available for death penalty cases if necessary. I'm sure that the American Bar Association would love to ensure that all prisoners get their full protections under the law, right?

Quote:
GEOGRAPHIC ARBITRARINESS: Since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, 80% of all executions have taken place in the South. The Northeast accounts for less than 2% of executions."
That is ridiculous. Geographic arbitrariness? The northeast has a different culture than the south that is less favorable to the death penalty. There is nothing arbitrary about it. I feel so sorry for the unfairness of you having a greater likelihood of getting the needle if you murder someone in Alabama than New York. My heart is bursting here with empathy for you. You should have the same chance of getting the death penalty for capital murder no matter what part of the country you commit capital murder in!

Quote:
And of course, the problem of killing an innocent man with no way to "make up for it".
The same thing can be asked of the police, the military, and private individuals finding themselves in situations where they use lethal force mistakenly. One does the best one can and that is all there is to it.

Quote:
Prosecutors seek the death penalty far more frequently when the victim of a homicide is white than when the victim is African-American or of another ethnic/racial origin.
Why? Might it be that whites are far more the victims of crimes fitting the legal requirements for first-degree murder?

Of course it is.

Quote:
Each prosecutor decides whether or not to seek the death penalty. Local politics, the location of the crime, plea bargaining, and pure chance affect the process and make it a lottery of who lives and who dies.
There is a problem with this? Prosecutorial discretion wins!

Quote:
Approximately two percent of those convicted of crimes that make them eligible for the death penalty actually receive a death sentence.
So?

This is boring.

Quote:
A 2007 study of death sentences in Connecticut conducted by Yale University School of Law revealed that African-American defendants receive the death penalty at three times the rate of white defendants in cases where the victims are white. In addition, killers of white victims are treated more severely than people who kill minorities, when it comes to deciding what charges to bring."
So? All these little pronouncements are divorced from reality. No details at all regarding the details of individual crimes. For two reasons of course: it wouldn't be practical, doing that for thousands of crimes, and of course because these studies are pushing an agenda, not searching for the truth. And the truth is that when the details of the crimes are considered, all these repetitions of "black" and "white" are nothing more than a smokescreen to keep people from thinking.

Whites are more often the victims of first degree murder and blacks more often the victims of second degree murder. Whites who commit murder are more likely to have it be their first offense or their first serious offense than blacks. That and other factors that have nothing directly to do with their race is why these statistics exist in such a way that they can be manipulated by the ABA, Amnesty International, and the rest of those dishonest shithole organizations who have arbitrarily declared themselves the arbiters of morality.

The death penalty is the final bulwark of the State before martial law, when it comes to ensuring domestic tranquility. As such it is not to be discarded lightly. Or at all.
 
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Old 12-07-2008
 
#36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
Again, I ask proponents of the Death Penalty, or at least those who still want SOME form of it around (from what I gather: DSquid, Windowless, HV, etc.): How do we fix the current system, the problems being costs, racism, classism, etc. And of course, the problem of killing an innocent man with no way to "make up for it"
The problem with the system is the people. If the people are racist/classist/whatever, then we have a problem regardless of whatever other law is in place. It wouldn't even matter if the death penalty were illegal. If there is someone who is unjust, they will be unjust under whatever system you have them.

It's not so much about "eye for an eye". It's about getting sickos off the street. If they are unrepentant and you know they would kill again, sometimes it's best to kill them.
 

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Old 12-07-2008
 
#37
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Death penalty costs are in excess of life sentences. People that have been wrongly imprisoned serving out life sentences can be exonerated. If they're dead, there's no saving them and it might not even be revealed that they were wrongly imprisoned since the state destroys the case records after the execution has been carried out to conceal any evidence and avoid surviving relatives filing suit.

Existential obliteration is not a real punishment. Spending the rest of your days in a hopeless bastille prison is punishment.

So by eliminating the death penalty we can save those who are discovered to have been wrongly convicted, save tax dollars, and deliver an actual punishment instead of a quick and painless release.

Where's the problem?
 
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Old 12-08-2008
 
#38
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As dumb as this may sound, it's a lot better of a detterent to know that you could die from doing a crime, rather than simply being in prison.

It's not like I think a lot of people should be. Only those with a noted sense of cruelty. It's highly unlikely that an innocent person would be cruel.
 
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Old 12-08-2008
 
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Is death really a deterrent? I'm not sure, do we have any statistics that show murder rates in states that have the death penalty versus those which do not?
 
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Old 12-09-2008
 
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Quote:
Where's the problem?
We don't need to do that to solve the problems you describe. So where's the problem?

Oops look at that we came back to the morality issue again. That's all there is. If the death penalty is moral it should be used for the most heinous of crimes if it isn't it should not.

Only one question matters: does a person who murders a child, an agent of the State (and, so, representative of the Public as a whole), commits multiple murders, murders while in commission of another violent felony, or commits premeditated murder retain his inalienable right to life? Or does he lose it by his actions, a rejection of the values of the society he lives in, which include that inalienable right to life?

Are you entitled to such a precious thing after you reject and actively attack it?

I say no. When that happens it's time to kick em upstairs and let God or the Great Turtle or nothing sort em out.
 
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Old 12-09-2008
 
#41
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If it's nothing then wouldn't that be more like a reward?
 
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Old 12-09-2008
 
#42
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Old 12-09-2008
 
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Personally I find the thought of not existing far more terrible than any eternal torture in the pits of hell or whatever other religious rubbish there is.
That's the state we were all in before we were born, and it wasn't terrible at all. It was nothing.

Being indestructably immortal and having to exist in a black void of a universe that has undergone heat death or burning forever in some masochistic chamber after death would be infinitely worse.
 

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Old 12-09-2008
 
#44
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Old 12-09-2008
 
#45
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That's the state we were all in before we were born, and it wasn't terrible at all. It was nothing.
In your opinion. Which, generally, has a validity slightly higher than Hitler's, but not by much.

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If it's nothing then wouldn't that be more like a reward?
Why? This concept of death being better than life imprisonment puzzles me. Maybe one of you two fools can explain it.
 
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