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Old 12-03-2008
 
#16
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The death penalty exists as a mode of deterrent, a quantum of solace, and an acknowledgement to the limited ability to rehabilitate.

The purpose of law is to keep order and continue a functioning society. People put on death row are being charged with crimes that are grossly aberrant to normal behavior in a society. Things that aren't just crimes of passion that are done in acts of extreme impulse, but rather sadistic or consciousless crimes that lack the basic components of remorse and value for other human lives that are required to function in society.

This means that they will probably never function in a society properly. Many times, these same people go on to murder, rape, and otherwise destroy in their prisons as well. They do not understand the concepts of order and quality of life. Is truly the solution to isolate and imprison these individuals until their dying days, where their standard of living is higher than innocent people in other countries? After you rape and murder a mother in front of her children then murder the children, can you truly say this individual "deserves" to be provided for and carried on society's shoulders? That we "owe" them something despite that they obviously care nothing for anyone else? That some kind of prison program is going to somehow impart the knowledge upon them that "hey, merciless brutal slaughter isn't okay, just fyi"?

If you can acknowledge that prison will not help them, that they will be a plague to the prison system, and that they will never be able to contribute anything meaningful to society outside of said behavior, I truly think that it's worth killing the person. It offers a quantum of solace for society, saying this person will never escape to repeat these murders. It offers solace for other prison inmates who are not hardcore deviants, and could possibly enter and exit our prison systems without trauma and go on to be functioning members of society. It sends a message to people planning brutal murders: "if you get caught, don't expect a comfy jail cell and three squares a day watching TV."

Suggesting that killing individuals so deviant to human behavior is injust is laughable. It amounts to defending monsters, whom are easy to defend when you can remain ignorant of the details of their crimes and the reality of their persons.
 
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Old 12-03-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Just playing devil's advocate here - what you say is true, but there is precedent for standards of proof which vary according to the wrongdoing in question or according to the gamut of remedies being considered by the judge. In a criminal court the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" but in civil court there are two different and distinct standards for judgment, "a preponderance of evidence" and "clear and convincing evidence."

For example, in Santosky v. Kramer (1982) the US Supreme Court decided that when the state seeks to take custody of a child away from a natural parent, the more stringent standard of proof ("clear and convincing evidence") must be used in order to afford the defendants due process in accordance with the requirements of the Constitution.
True, there are different standards for evidence in different courts, though the role of the civil court is quite different from that of the criminal court. The criminal court is supposed to hand out punishment for transgressions, ie to inflict damage. The civil court has the task to restore inequalities to their previous situation.

There are also different standards within the criminal code, but that has more so to do with the description of the crime. For instance the difference between intentional and not intentional killing of another human being, the different standard here has to do with the evidence of intent. The general rule though stays that it has to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. The standard of evidence does not in a way relate to the punishment to be handed out.

The case of Santosky vs Kramer strenghtens the maxim that the heavier the consequences the heavier the burden of proof needs to be.

I have to admit though that laws concerning terrorism and organized crime however have breached this maxim. The consequence, punishment, stays the same, though the burden of proof has been lowered in some cases to make prosecution easier.
 
 

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Old 12-03-2008
 
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Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
HV- I too didn't seem to believe that the death penalty system is more costly. Seems odd. But here's a detailed article w/ LOTS of data:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
Just to throw this out there... but maybe the reason death row costs more is cause it even exists? My point is, why wait? Once convicted, you're killed the next day. That's how it should be.
 
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Old 12-03-2008
 
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Old 12-03-2008
 
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Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
The death penalty exists as a mode of deterrent, a quantum of solace, and an acknowledgement to the limited ability to rehabilitate.

The purpose of law is to keep order and continue a functioning society. People put on death row are being charged with crimes that are grossly aberrant to normal behavior in a society. Things that aren't just crimes of passion that are done in acts of extreme impulse, but rather sadistic or consciousless crimes that lack the basic components of remorse and value for other human lives that are required to function in society.

This means that they will probably never function in a society properly. Many times, these same people go on to murder, rape, and otherwise destroy in their prisons as well. They do not understand the concepts of order and quality of life. Is truly the solution to isolate and imprison these individuals until their dying days, where their standard of living is higher than innocent people in other countries? After you rape and murder a mother in front of her children then murder the children, can you truly say this individual "deserves" to be provided for and carried on society's shoulders? That we "owe" them something despite that they obviously care nothing for anyone else? That some kind of prison program is going to somehow impart the knowledge upon them that "hey, merciless brutal slaughter isn't okay, just fyi"?

If you can acknowledge that prison will not help them, that they will be a plague to the prison system, and that they will never be able to contribute anything meaningful to society outside of said behavior, I truly think that it's worth killing the person. It offers a quantum of solace for society, saying this person will never escape to repeat these murders. It offers solace for other prison inmates who are not hardcore deviants, and could possibly enter and exit our prison systems without trauma and go on to be functioning members of society. It sends a message to people planning brutal murders: "if you get caught, don't expect a comfy jail cell and three squares a day watching TV."

Suggesting that killing individuals so deviant to human behavior is injust is laughable. It amounts to defending monsters, whom are easy to defend when you can remain ignorant of the details of their crimes and the reality of their persons.
The idea of the death penalty as a detterent is all well in theory, but statistics show it isnt true.
 
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Old 12-03-2008
 
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I support death by penis-shaped cheese grater to the ass for rapists.
 
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Old 12-03-2008
 
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Old 12-03-2008
 
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Originally Posted by H0teLVi0LeT View Post
Areese, I see you're currently looking at this thread. Please... before you post, make sure you don't end up boring me to death. You gotta be more savage, man.
I'll use more "fucks" and shit, this time :-D.

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Originally Posted by H0teLVi0LeT View Post
And yeah I agree with DS on this. Once convicted with the death penalty beyond any reasonable doubt, the death sentence ought to be commenced the very next day. Enough of this "Virginia" (or whatever the fuck the state was) spending 37 million dollars on every execution. That's bullshit. And enough of this panzy ass "lethal injection" shit. God knows how much that stupid shits costs. Get a guy in there with a fucking pistol and blow his brains out. And we're done! All this crap about how they feel "pain" before they die... fucking people need to grow a spine.
That's all dandy, sure, except what about the part of never being able to "take it back." The Death Penalty has been used countless times against innocent people. That's why an appeal process exists. That's why Troy Davis is still alive. I'm sure you would say only those who "definitely" did it deserve death. Well "definitely" is sure hard to define. Excuse me: Sure as fuck hard to define. :-D In terms of cheaper deaths, well, that would make sense, but I'm for removing ALL of those costs. By removing the penalty, like most western nations.

The death penalty is not a fair system. Why the hell do we need it? And by the way, I do agree that we should, you know, take a little time before taking a human life. Perhaps that's just me.

As for my Court disagreements...the DC ban...well, we'll just disagree on that one- no point on arguing that...in this thread. But what else? Don't tell me you don't want habeaus corpus in Guantanamo...

----------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
The death penalty exists as a mode of deterrent, a quantum of solace, and an acknowledgement to the limited ability to rehabilitate.
Deterrent? Find me the evidence. Article: http://www.truthinjustice.org/922death.htm Obviously, there are other things in play here in the article, but it's interesting to note that states w/ the death penalty have higher homicide rates. Also, you mention that the people who are put to death are sadistic and rather unhuman. Think they would be deterred by that? Guess what? They think they won't get caught! Deterrents rarely work.

Quantum of Solace? Bad movie. But your point may ring true, though I don't claim to get it. But a lot of things provide solace. Reason to keep something? Well...

Limited ability to rehabilitate. How do we know they can't be rehabilitated? We kill them.

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Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
People put on death row are being charged with crimes that are grossly aberrant to normal behavior in a society. Things that aren't just crimes of passion that are done in acts of extreme impulse, but rather sadistic or consciousless crimes that lack the basic components of remorse and value for other human lives that are required to function in society.
You think acts of extreme impulse DON'T put people on death row? Of course that happens, especially if you are poor and black.

[quote=GenocideAlive;490162]
If you can acknowledge that prison will not help them, that they will be a plague to the prison system, and that they will never be able to contribute anything meaningful to society outside of said behavior, I truly think that it's worth killing the person. It offers a quantum of solace for society, saying this person will never escape to repeat these murders. It offers solace for other prison inmates who are not hardcore deviants, and could possibly enter and exit our prison systems without trauma and go on to be functioning members of society. It sends a message to people planning brutal murders: "if you get caught, don't expect a comfy jail cell and three squares a day watching TV."

Comfy jail cell? Go to prison, man. It ain't comfy. You also don't seem to want to try to rehabilitate before you even know. Rather would just kill the problem, because that fixes everything, especially when they turn out to be innocent. "But no, we'll kill the ones we KNOW are guilty." That's what is always said. Takes a lot of pride and confidence to know a man is guilty enough to kill him.

Comfy jail cells...can't get over that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
Suggesting that killing individuals so deviant to human behavior is injust is laughable. It amounts to defending monsters, whom are easy to defend when you can remain ignorant of the details of their crimes and the reality of their persons.
I generally don't think being against murder to be laughable, and neither do you. I just address it on both sides of the coin. When does one become "deviant" enough. Give me some parameters- concrete ones.

This isn't about defending a murderer. This is about ending a corrupt, unfair practice.

------------------------

Windowless- I thought I already made my case. Due process must be observed in order to take a life, as the constitution states. Due Process involves fundamental fairness. The Death penalty is not fair, and is practices depending on location, the bloodthirstiness of the DA, the victim's race and status and gender, the perp's race and status and gender, etc. I don't think due process is truly being observed.

But you'll probably say I'm reaching. And even if it isn't unconstitutional, the death penalty is a broke system.

Speaking of which, how do you all plan on fixing the system to only kill the real "deviants"?
 
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Old 12-03-2008
 
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Originally Posted by H0teLVi0LeT View Post
Total rubbish, show the sources. Even then it's likely bullshit. There are many criminals out there who heave a sigh of relief in the courtroom when they are given a life sentence rather than the death penalty.

Garbage statistics I'm willing to bet, if they even exist.
Ill find the statistics, but I am pretty sure it is well documented. You are right though about the sigh of relief, but the sigh comes after they committed the crime.
 
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Old 12-03-2008
 
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Old 12-04-2008
 
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Windowless- I thought I already made my case. Due process must be observed in order to take a life, as the constitution states. Due Process involves fundamental fairness. The Death penalty is not fair, and is practices depending on location, the bloodthirstiness of the DA, the victim's race and status and gender, the perp's race and status and gender, etc. I don't think due process is truly being observed.
I disagree with your claim that the current system is "fundamentally unfair". You are rehashing the 1970's case against the death penalty and it has already been addressed to my satisfaction. I disagree, not only because you haven't proved your claims, but because it does not follow that because one "race/class/gender" is sentenced to death more often than another, that it is an unfair system. Also, "race/class/gender" arguments have nothing to do with whether a person is guilty or not.

The example you have given about Mr.Davis also does not make for an argument against the death penalty. It just shows that the expensive, but maybe necessarily so, appeal system works to weed out improprieties in the justice system.

And what does location have to do with anything? Ignorance of the laws in any locality is not an excuse and never has been. I am going to claim "state's rights" here again. But I do disagree with states that ban the death penalty in all cases. I lived in Montgomery County, Maryland during the majority of the Beltway Sniper Attacks (google it). The majority of the murders took place in this county. It pissed me off that the citizens of our county/state had to settle to send John Allen Muhammad to Virginia to acquire justice because it is practically impossible to get a death sentence in Maryland. End of anecdote: Muhammad is dead--I hope the fucker burns in hell.
 
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Old 12-04-2008
 
#27
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I disagree with your claim that the current system is "fundamentally unfair". You are rehashing the 1970's case against the death penalty and it has already been addressed to my satisfaction. I disagree, not only because you haven't proved your claims, but because it does not follow that because one "race/class/gender" is sentenced to death more often than another, that it is an unfair system. Also, "race/class/gender" arguments have nothing to do with whether a person is guilty or not.
How can you claim the current system is unfair? Are you serious? Here's stats:

"Death Penalty and Race
Race of Homicide Victims in Cases Resulting in a Death Sentence since 1976

Hispanics- 5%
Black- 14%
White- 79%
Other-2%

In a 1990 report, the non-partisan U.S. General Accounting Office found "a pattern of evidence indicating racial disparities in the charging, sentencing, and imposition of the death penalty." The study concluded that a defendant was several times more likely to be sentenced to death if the murder victim was white. This has been confirmed by the findings of many other studies that, holding all other factors constant, the single most reliable predictor of whether someone will be sentenced to death is the race of the victim.
From initial charging decisions to plea bargaining to jury sentencing, African-Americans are treated more harshly when they are defendants, and their lives are accorded less value when they are victims. All-white or virtually all-white juries are still commonplace in many localities.
  • A report sponsored by the American Bar Association in 2007 concluded that one-third of African-American death row inmates in Philadelphia would have received sentences of life imprisonment if they had not been African-American.
  • A January 2003 study released by the University of Maryland concluded that race and geography are major factors in death penalty decisions. Specifically, prosecutors are more likely to seek a death sentence when the race of the victim is white and are less likely to seek a death sentence when the victim is African-American.
  • A 2007 study of death sentences in Connecticut conducted by Yale University School of Law revealed that African-American defendants receive the death penalty at three times the rate of white defendants in cases where the victims are white. In addition, killers of white victims are treated more severely than people who kill minorities, when it comes to deciding what charges to bring."
Interesting yes? Why should the skin color of the victim matter? This is racism, and people are being put to death because of it. Explain how this isn't fundamentally unfair.

Here's a nice summary:
"Factors contributing to the arbitrariness of the death penalty:
  • Ninety-five percent of death row inmates cannot afford their own attorney. Court-appointed attorneys often lack the experience necessary for capital trials and are overworked and underpaid. In the most extreme cases, some have slept through parts of trials or have arrived under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.
  • Prosecutors seek the death penalty far more frequently when the victim of a homicide is white than when the victim is African-American or of another ethnic/racial origin.
  • Co-defendants charged with committing the same crime often receive different punishments, where one defendant may receive a death sentence while another receives prison time.
  • Approximately two percent of those convicted of crimes that make them eligible for the death penalty actually receive a death sentence.
  • Each prosecutor decides whether or not to seek the death penalty. Local politics, the location of the crime, plea bargaining, and pure chance affect the process and make it a lottery of who lives and who dies.
  • GEOGRAPHIC ARBITRARINESS: Since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, 80% of all executions have taken place in the South. The Northeast accounts for less than 2% of executions."
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Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
The example you have given about Mr.Davis also does not make for an argument against the death penalty. It just shows that the expensive, but maybe necessarily so, appeal system works to weed out improprieties in the justice system.
It shows that an innocent man could be put to death. I find issues w/ a system like that. You may say that any system makes mistakes. Of course! But it's one thing to imprison an innocent man, and quite another to kill. And since the death penalty costs more and hasn't been seen to be a deterrent (more on that!), I don't see the point. It's used unfairly and isn't efficient. Explain why we need it?

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Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
And what does location have to do with anything? Ignorance of the laws in any locality is not an excuse and never has been. I am going to claim "state's rights" here again. But I do disagree with states that ban the death penalty in all cases. I lived in Montgomery County, Maryland during the majority of the Beltway Sniper Attacks (google it). The majority of the murders took place in this county. It pissed me off that the citizens of our county/state had to settle to send John Allen Muhammad to Virginia to acquire justice because it is practically impossible to get a death sentence in Maryland. End of anecdote: Muhammad is dead--I hope the fucker burns in hell.
Location has everything to do with it. And not really "state's rights." What about DA jurisdiction? That plays a HUGE part. It depends on how much the DA is into the death penalty. It's so arbitrary and is NOT applied equally. This is not due process, this is a sham.

And I'm glad you hope the fucker burns in hell. Ok.

---------------------------

HV- You want deterrent stats?

http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-pena....do?id=1101085

And of course some murderers breathe a sigh of relief when getting life. But as reflection says, that;s AFTER the crime was committed and AFTER they were convicted. Crime deterred?

I'm pleased you don't think foriegn fighters, who can be taken at will by the gov't for ANYTHING, and don't get a real trial. That's not justice, that's kidnapping. What kind of example are we setting? That's something dictators do!
 
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Obama has won. The seas of change are flooding the streets- a deluge of possibility, a monsoon of opportunity, a literal tsunami of inspiration. We're talking hope. And the only thing left to do is to put on some swimming trunks, maybe a pair of goggles, and just riiiide the wave...

And a major pox on that bastard Jeph Loeb. Everything you touch dies.
 

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Old 12-06-2008
 
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I dont see the point. Revenge is for sissys, its too easy. Everybody wants revenge. You want to punish someone who harms you? Try forgiving them. See how much that fucks them up.
 
 

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Old 12-06-2008
 
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 H0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too muchH0teLVi0LeT might just love this place a little bit too much
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Last edited by H0teLVi0LeT; 12-26-2008 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 12-06-2008
 
#30
United States Luther Stark
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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 Luther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of winLuther Stark is made of win
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If I killed off your entire family tomorrow and destroyed your entire little happy world that you've created for yourself, forgiveness would be the last thing on your mind.
Somehow i think that the hell you would've had to create for yourself in order to do something like that would be punishment enough. That - or insanity. (And I obviously have no desire to hurt the mentally ill.)
 

Last edited by Luther Stark; 12-06-2008 at 04:33 PM.
 

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