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Diablo Discussion Enter the Uncertain Realm Dominated by an Epic Conflict.

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Old 11-08-2008
 
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Default Auto-stats: Good or Bad ?

One of the announcements that stirred lots of discussions among Diablo fans was the removal of manual stat allocating feature ( which some consider an important part of what makes diablo ).


There were also some worries cause people thought that weapon stat restrictions were still there and that without manual stat allocation it will be very restrictive, but luckily it turned out that those weapon stats restrictions got removed too leaving weapons with only Player Lv. restraints ( meaning at the proper Clv. even a Wizard can use a hammer, axe or even wear heavy armor .. and while it might not be very realistic it is interesting gameplay wise )


But some others complained that now with stats being auto-allocated at each level up ( complementing your specific class automatically ) there is a limited chance for character variety and customization ( which Blizz replied to by stating that all the stat customization was superficial and not really interesting, and that they would rather put customization elsewhere ), part of the complainers kept mentioning that they liked to screw up their characters sometimes and experiment with crazy and unusual builds ( like putting all your Barbarians points in STR only to create a massive damaging but fragile hulk for example )


So, is it really worth to keep the Stat allocation or was it a good idea to remove it ( since it will allow for easier game balance and fine tuning if they can pin point your stats at any point in the game )


And on a side note, character customization based on stats is still viable to some degree, except it is a little bit more controlled this time through class specific passive skills .... for example the Barbarian in D3 has a passive skill called Focus Strength in his juggernaut skill tree ( more info at the Barb page at http://www.diii.net/ ) that makes his STR stat points more useful by increasing their effect over the Barbarians physical damage and it has 15 lvs too, so if a player wants to emphasise on brute force he can make his stats more effective indirectly by investing in similar passive skills ( which idicates that skills and skill builds will play a great role in character customization in D3 ) and if the same is applied to all other classes i think it will be ok if manual stat allocation is gone for good ( at least IMO )


So what do you think ?
 
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Old 11-08-2008
 
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I liked manual stat allocation, but if Blizzard removed this feature I'm sure they'll give us another way to be creative.
 
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Old 11-08-2008
 
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Making weapons only Clevel required is just dumb. I'm all for an optional auto-stat system for people who don't won't to put thought into their stats, but Diablo 2 had the perfect level of depth for a casual RPG when it came to character customization. Making any weapon that isn't class specific usuable by any class that isn't special built for a strange effect blurrs the lines between classes too much. It also goes against every logical design philosophy to remove features like that.
 

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Old 11-08-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalarsco View Post
Making any weapon that isn't class specific usuable by any class that isn't special built for a strange effect blurrs the lines between classes too much. It also goes against every logical design philosophy to remove features like that.
I know, but you already could do that in D2, you could put enough points in a D2 sorceress STR stat to enable her to carry a heavy battleaxe or wear heavy armor, but that resulted in the character stats being messed up rendering the character quite ineffective.

With the new system a Wizard could try out heavy armor or heavy weapons without messing their stats, but since that class doesn't have any passive skills to increase physical damage or make armor more effective ( which are things the Barbarian has as passive skills ) it won't really be as effective as a Wizard who uses weapons or items designed specially for him/her, still unlike D2 that sort of experimenting or unusual class builds ( melee wizard ) will still be possible in D3 but without ruining the character stats, which IMO is a plus and a good thing really ^_^
 

Last edited by KnightWolf; 11-08-2008 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 11-08-2008
 
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Start bonuses will be attributed to items far more than in D2. Axes with mana boosts and staves with strength boosts will exist, letting different builds (like melee sorcs) exist and be effective.
 
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Old 11-10-2008
 
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So diversity shrank again? Respec, auto-stats, only lvl req for items… What next? Only one generic Character Class – why bother for more?
Expect attack of clones after D3 release.
Awful.
 
 

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Old 11-10-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justamonsta View Post
So diversity shrank again? Respec, auto-stats, only lvl req for items… What next? Only one generic Character Class – why bother for more?
Expect attack of clones after D3 release.
Awful.

Exaggerating like this is what's awful, did you even stop for few seconds to check the skill trees of the current classes in D3 and how much variety of passive and active skills do they provide ( way better variety than D2 ever had .... in which half the abilities where almost useless ), there are already many options of customization in D3 with just the skills.

Add to that the Runes and items and we already have tons of options for character builds.

It is really funny how many people complain about stat allocation removed without stopping to look whether it was really worth it or not .... the majority of the variety it provided was superficial and limited by many factors that it really doesn't matter much ( unless you are making a bizarre build which usually is fun for a short while but becomes completely useless in higher difficulties )

So in my Opinion i think stat allocation really offered close to NOTHING in terms of true variety or enjoyment.

And by removing manual stat allocation the game balance will be much sharper and easier to fine tune ( in both MP and SP ) and will allow for better balance on items as well.
 
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Old 11-10-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWolf View Post
I know, but you already could do that in D2, you could put enough points in a D2 sorceress STR stat to enable her to carry a heavy battleaxe or wear heavy armor, but that resulted in the character stats being messed up rendering the character quite ineffective.

With the new system a Wizard could try out heavy armor or heavy weapons without messing their stats, but since that class doesn't have any passive skills to increase physical damage or make armor more effective ( which are things the Barbarian has as passive skills ) it won't really be as effective as a Wizard who uses weapons or items designed specially for him/her, still unlike D2 that sort of experimenting or unusual class builds ( melee wizard ) will still be possible in D3 but without ruining the character stats, which IMO is a plus and a good thing really ^_^
That's actually exactly my point, though. I can do crazy stuff, but it requires a massive stat realignment. So yes it would be easier to make weird builds, but it would then become too common. Why bother not using heavy armor if there is nothing stopping your character from doing so? Sure there are magic items once you get to a high level that give skill bonuses, but that takes a while for anything except mage weapons. I don't want to see all the Wizards running around with plate on Normal difficulty.
Yes, they can put more restrictions on what a character can equip based on class like in WoW, but if they do that then all autostatting does is take away one third of the customization potential for your build.
 

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Old 11-10-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalarsco View Post
Why bother not using heavy armor if there is nothing stopping your character from doing so? Sure there are magic items once you get to a high level that give skill bonuses, but that takes a while for anything except mage weapons. I don't want to see all the Wizards running around with plate on Normal difficulty.
Yes, they can put more restrictions on what a character can equip based on class like in WoW
I understand your concerns ... but there are reasons why wizards won't always use plates all the time ( except maybe melee wizard builds )

There will be more variety to the class specific items wish will surely complement your character's skills and enhance them more than a normal heavy plate .. so only those wanting to go melee wizard will be looking for the best heavy plates ... others will look for items ( armor, shoulder-pads, helmets, pants ) that compliment the skills they selected for their current build ... hence variety ensues ( as long as there are many skills viable and useful not only few like in D2 )




Quote:
but if they do that then all autostatting does is take away one third of the customization potential for your build.
Sigh ... manual stating is really overrated .... most builds where centered around either specializing in certain skills or certain items .... stats where only a minor and complementary thing .... their removal will have no effect whatsoever on the number of builds available ( and i mean the builds that can actually be used like .. Hammerdin ... Bowazon ..... not broken useless ones )
 

Last edited by KnightWolf; 11-10-2008 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 11-10-2008
 
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I hated manual stats. When I first started out playing Diablo 2, I made some of the most sorry ass characters imaginable, and since there was no way to redo it - I was fucked.
 
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Old 11-10-2008
 
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If you screw your character up that badly then just make a new one, I guess. I know tons of players, and had never heard of anyone having that many problems. Usually people only come up with experimental stat problems after a few characters. Basic builds that can get you through the game aren't that hard. And if it's that big an issue then you can respec at some point. Also, there should be an autostat option for those who want to use it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWolf View Post
I understand your concerns ... but there are reasons why wizards won't always use plates all the time ( except maybe melee wizard builds )

There will be more variety to the class specific items wish will surely complement your character's skills and enhance them more than a normal heavy plate .. so only those wanting to go melee wizard will be looking for the best heavy plates ... others will look for items ( armor, shoulder-pads, helmets, pants ) that compliment the skills they selected for their current build ... hence variety ensues ( as long as there are many skills viable and useful not only few like in D2 )






Sigh ... manual stating is really overrated .... most builds where centered around either specializing in certain skills or certain items .... stats where only a minor and complementary thing .... their removal will have no effect whatsoever on the number of builds available ( and i mean the builds that can actually be used like .. Hammerdin ... Bowazon ..... not broken useless ones )
Sure there are items with +Skills eventually, but, as I said, that modifier isn't that common on items. Of course, they could make +Skills items much more common. In the end, I just like the idea of custom stats. It isn't that big a deal, I guess. I just don't like the idea of reducing customization in any way. It sets a bad precedent. New games in a series shouldn't have features removed, even small ones. I'm all for simplification of interface, but things like custom stats shouldn't be removed in the name of simplicity.
 

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Old 11-11-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalarsco View Post
Sure there are items with +Skills eventually, but, as I said, that modifier isn't that common on items. Of course, they could make +Skills items much more common.
I'm sure they will do that, that's the main and only way to make class specific items viable and useful to use ... and i also hope they never do the stupid items that give a class a skill that doesn't belong to it ( that's the sort of customizations that ruins the gameplay )



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalarsco View Post
In the end, I just like the idea of custom stats. It isn't that big a deal, I guess. I just don't like the idea of reducing customization in any way. It sets a bad precedent. New games in a series shouldn't have features removed, even small ones. I'm all for simplification of interface, but things like custom stats shouldn't be removed in the name of simplicity.
It is not simplicity ... in short ... not any customization = good thing ... that's a very simple and non-realistic approach ... some customization options are not worth it .. they don't add much to the game .. and not only that .. they actually hurt the game ( like giving barbs items that enable teleport ) .. that's why whenever there is a customization option it should be evaluated first .. not just add customization for the sake of customization .. that's not game design really .. D3 is not a sandbox game even if it is random .. somethings need to be under control for the game experience to be tunable and easily balanced for PvE and PvP.

I'll try to explain for example how is it bad for gameplay balance:-

-How do you expect the devs to well design and balance a certain area in the game ( mid or late game ) if they can’t get an approximation on what stats will you have by that time, since that will be reflected on the types of items that will drop then, the monsters types and HP ... among many other things.

Now if they leave it up to the players to mess up their characters they will have to account for a much much wider range of possible stat values in their designs ( like STR values from 50 to 250, or VIT values from 125 to 300 ), usually by making the monsters harder than usual to account for that wider range .. which makes the game even harder for those who play normally, but with controlled stats they can easily approximate a decent range of stat values for players when they reach that area ( give or take few extra stat points ) and then design to be a challenging but satisfying experience .. not a frustrating one.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Seriously .. why do people keep complaining about features removed and lack of customization when there are already new features made to replace them and even some not announced yet ( unless this has to do with clinging to old formulas and nostalgia not actual gameplay concerns )
 

Last edited by KnightWolf; 11-11-2008 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 11-13-2008
 
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I took the time to delve into the subject of this particular controversy, and this is what I came up with:

Ultimately, the auto-allocation is Blizzard's attempt to alleviate a problem caused by an imbalance in the stat system. In a truly balanced system, there would be no "right" or "wrong" way to stat your character, which would render the point of having auto-allocation moot to begin with. In short: auto-allocation is treating the symptoms, but not the actual disease, and, given that a significant number of players don't like the baggage that auto-allocation comes with, the "cure" is, in fact, worse than the disease in the opinions of some circles (oh, the irony!).

Allowing players to assign their character's stats was never the problem; the imbalance between the stats themselves was. To that end, if the stats are balanced this time around, we can forget this auto-allocation business and everyone can go home happy.
 

Last edited by vIsitor; 11-13-2008 at 08:17 PM.

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Old 11-14-2008
 
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It does make balance harder in theory, but it's not like they didn't make it work in D2.
 

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Old 11-16-2008
 
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Plate chest: +10 strength

Cloth chest: +10 energy.

As a wizard, what are you going to pick?
 
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