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Old 01-25-2009
 
#16
Moldova CajunMan
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I like Mike's idea I say we let them all go with tracking devices inserted in there heads. Then we they all make it back to Terroriststan we blow the shit out of them. We can get them inclose to the high ups and when they dont expect it we kill as many as possible.

On a different note I think the mdeia is shit every last channel. Fuck them all.
 
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Old 01-26-2009
 
#17
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Originally Posted by JT View Post
To determine if the person on trial is actually a terrorist, just like here in the US. We don't round up random people on the pretense that some of them are murderers or rapists, then lock them up indefinitely without any guarantee of a trial or legal recourse.
Why would we begin applying US laws in non-US countries for non-US citizens? You realize there are things people could be doing in another country that are wholly illegal here? How do you try someone from a different country under US Law? How do you intend to prove that this person is a terrorist? By releasing military intelligence into public record?

"We have a spy in this person's terror cell, they gave us some secret plans."
Quote:
You treat it like any criminal case; you build up evidence against said person before arresting them. That is the ONLY way we should be treating this situation IMO. Of course I am not a terrorist expert, but I do believe we, the US, should have the legal and moral high ground in these cases.
This is what's mind-boggling, JT. What legal high ground? The right to determine who is a terrorist, aprehend them abroad, bring them back to the US and try them for crimes in US law? Even if you proved that they were a terrorist, doesn't make them a de facto responsibility of their home country?
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I presume this would be the punishment for actual terrorists, no?
...no.
 
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Old 01-26-2009
 
#18
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Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
Why would we begin applying US laws in non-US countries for non-US citizens? You realize there are things people could be doing in another country that are wholly illegal here? How do you try someone from a different country under US Law? How do you intend to prove that this person is a terrorist? By releasing military intelligence into public record?
We need a higher standard of evidence than "Bush said so." If there is no evidence then we should assume they are not terrorists. If there is, take them to trial. Note that military intelligence does not necessarily have to be released to the public, but to a judge who could determine whether or not there was sufficient evidence to convict (I don't buy the whole "judge might give away state secrets bs"). Terrorists don't necessarily need a jury of peers, but an impartial judge would be more appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenocideAlive
This is what's mind-boggling, JT. What legal high ground? The right to determine who is a terrorist, aprehend them abroad, bring them back to the US and try them for crimes in US law? Even if you proved that they were a terrorist, doesn't make them a de facto responsibility of their home country?
Then ship them back to their home countries. Oh wait, I guess since its a GLOBAL war on terrorism, it IS our responsibility!

We just need a higher standard than what Bush has been using. I believe president Obama has come up with a superior system and I trust his judgement over the previous asshole.
 
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Old 01-26-2009
 
#19
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian
We need a higher standard of evidence than "Bush said so."
The standard of evidence was never "Bush said so." You liar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hawaiian
If there is no evidence then we should assume they are not terrorists. If there is, take them to trial. Note that military intelligence does not necessarily have to be released to the public, but to a judge who could determine whether or not there was sufficient evidence to convict (I don't buy the whole "judge might give away state secrets bs"). Terrorists don't necessarily need a jury of peers, but an impartial judge would be more appropriate.
This exact process was occurring in Guantanamo already, especially after that bullshit ruling, Hamdi v. Rumsfeld. It's hilarious that you come to the conclusion that what Obama is going to do is somehow "better" is purely based on the fact that Obama is involved rather than Bush.

However, what you have outlined here is not what Obama is going to do. Obama is going to end up putting the terrorists in front of civilian judges and juries and he will risk compromising national security to do so. There's no legal precedent or need that justifies this action. It's is not "better". It's strictly worse.
 
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Old 01-26-2009
 
#20
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Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
The standard of evidence was never "Bush said so." You liar.
More or less, liar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
This exact process was occurring in Guantanamo already, especially after that bullshit ruling, Hamdi v. Rumsfeld. It's hilarious that you come to the conclusion that what Obama is going to do is somehow "better" is purely based on the fact that Obama is involved rather than Bush.
Obama is more intelligent than Bush, that much is certain. I believe that he is also much wiser and I trust his judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
However, what you have outlined here is not what Obama is going to do. Obama is going to end up putting the terrorists in front of civilian judges and juries and he will risk compromising national security to do so. There's no legal precedent or need that justifies this action. It's is not "better". It's strictly worse.
Wrong. I'll trust the judgement of our Commander in Chief over a partisan hack any day. Go cry elsewhere, the elections over and you lost.
 
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Old 01-26-2009
 
#21
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DR has now commenced skipping into the sunset hand in hand with his butt-brother, Barack Obama.
 
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Old 01-26-2009
 
#22
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Owned, go cry elsewhere.
 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#23
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Many of the detainees at Gitmo have been captured in battle. In such circumstances they are considered prisoners of war.

Answer, DE: What rights do POWs have? I say they have none, no rights whatsoever. They have no right to habeus corpus and nor right to trial. If I had my way, such prisoners would be shot, not left in Cuba.

Non-U.S. citizens and enemy combatants have no rights as far as I am concerned.

 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#24
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POW's have the rights given to them by the Geneva Convention. Those rights are just to treat them humanely until an end to the conflict has come along.

We shouldn't offer them American rights, because one, they aren't citizens of America, and two, knowing the American justice system, yes, some innocents would be released.

What about those that did do bad things? What if our legal system, as corrupt and liberal as it is, released them, too?
 

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Old 01-31-2009
 
#25
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Non-U.S. citizens and enemy combatants have no rights as far as I am concerned.
You probably ought to clarify this, lest you look like an idiot
 
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Old 01-31-2009
 
#26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosoraptor View Post
Many of the detainees at Gitmo have been captured in battle. In such circumstances they are considered prisoners of war.

Answer, DE: What rights do POWs have? I say they have none, no rights whatsoever. They have no right to habeus corpus and nor right to trial. If I had my way, such prisoners would be shot, not left in Cuba.

Non-U.S. citizens and enemy combatants have no rights as far as I am concerned.
Prisoners of war do have rights, if you want to consider them POW's then they should be given all the same rights as accorded by the Geneva conventions. That also means they are under no obligation to give out any information except their name and rank.

Otherwise, we need to determine their guilt first. We shouldn't assume that someone is guilty just because Bush accused them, especially given Bush's track record. What about the innocent people we've tortured? Don't you think innocent people have a right not to be tortured? Most of the prisoners have been released because it was determined that they were in fact not terrorists at all. Also lets keep in mind that somebody fighting the United States isn't necessarily a terrorist.
 
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Old 02-01-2009
 
#27
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian
Otherwise, we need to determine their guilt first. We shouldn't assume that someone is guilty just because Bush accused them, especially given Bush's track record. What about the innocent people we've tortured? Don't you think innocent people have a right not to be tortured?
What proof do you have that innocents were tortured? We shouldn't assume that someone innocent has been tortured just because DR says so, given his track record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hawaiian
Most of the prisoners have been released because it was determined that they were in fact not terrorists at all.
Then the system works and has been applied properly.
 
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Old 02-01-2009
 
#28
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Originally Posted by Philosoraptor View Post
The Washington Post has never been a beacon of light in this poisonous field of journalism, but today it reached a new low: link

To get straight to the point, the article insinuates that removing the right of due process and habeus corpus from detainees is unjust.

Am I missing something? These are not American citizens, and thus are not protected by the Constitution. They are ununiformed irregulars who should (to my mind) be instantly shot, or at the most be considered prisoners of war: to be held until the conflict is over.

Why on earth should the United States gives its enemies the protections the Constitution gives her citizens? Has the country lost its mind?
You know the funniest part of this whole ordeal? Obama isn't getting rid of the Gitmo practices. By law the Gitmo detainees aren't allowed to be tried in civil courts, or to be held in normal prisons. Furthermore Obama's executive order (which he barely understands, just signed it) does allow for "enhanced" interrogative techniques - AKA torture - under special circumstances, which basically means whenever they deem it necessary. Nothing has changed, it's just a wolf jumping from one sheep's clothing to a different sheep's clothing.

Sort of on a different note - taking a chapter out of the book of dirty Chicago politics, Obama is setting himself for doing whatever he wants, but maintaining a clean sheet by having plausible deniability behind everything he does. The loophole that allows torture by not specifically banning it is just one example. Deniability will be one of the top characteristics of his administration, I think we will see.
 

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Old 02-01-2009
 
#29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
What proof do you have that innocents were tortured? We shouldn't assume that someone innocent has been tortured just because DR says so, given his track record.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
Then the system works and has been applied properly.
Consider the case of Murat Kurnaz, who was illegally detained for 5 years for no reason. If he had a writ of habeus corpus then he wouldn't have been illegally detained for 5 years. In other words, if the government were forced to prove he was guilty (rather than simply assert it) then we wouldn't have this problem of imprisoning innocent people for no reason.

And according to Philosoraptor he should have been executed. Obviously thats ridiculous. Bush fought this tooth and nail every step of the way. If we had trusted Bush these innocent men would still be in Gitmo.
 
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