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Old 01-12-2009
 
#46
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Originally Posted by Golgo 13
The problem here is not life. We kill living things en masse all the time every day without bearing a second thought to it. Swatting a fly, eating a tomato, taking an antibiotic so you don't die from an infection, etc.
Then let me be more specific: We don't know when human life begins. And who gets to define 'meaningful'?
 
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Old 01-12-2009
 
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Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Are a tumor and a human being the same organism? No.

Are a human being and a fetus the same organism? Yes
I really hate to get involved in this clusterfuck (because argument via analogy in cases of abortion only convolutes and emotionally loads the issues) but it's worth noting that cancer is not some mythological creature imbedded into humans. Cancer is nothing more than unchecked growth of human cells.
 

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Old 01-12-2009
 
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Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Then let me be more specific: We don't know when human life begins. And who gets to define 'meaningful'?
We have to distinguish between human tissue and human individuals. My nails are human tissue, but I doubt anyone would lobby Congress to ban finger and toe nail clipping.

In order to be an individual, you have to have the ability to possess individuality, and a functioning brain is a prerequisite for that much by any stretch of the imagination. Without any form of sensory perception, we're just talking about a piece of meat. It's the same reason we pull the plug on those that are brain dead.

That being said, I see no reason why we shouldn't harvest human tissues and use them to the best of our ability to improve the lives of human individuals as much as we can.
 
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Old 01-14-2009
 
#49
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Originally Posted by Golgo 13 View Post
We have to distinguish between human tissue and human individuals. My nails are human tissue, but I doubt anyone would lobby Congress to ban finger and toe nail clipping.

In order to be an individual, you have to have the ability to possess individuality, and a functioning brain is a prerequisite for that much by any stretch of the imagination. Without any form of sensory perception, we're just talking about a piece of meat. It's the same reason we pull the plug on those that are brain dead.

That being said, I see no reason why we shouldn't harvest human tissues and use them to the best of our ability to improve the lives of human individuals as much as we can.
I think that the difference between toe nails and an embryo are quite clear: The embryo has the potential to become an individual with a personality. Is any embryo fair game for harvesting under your definition?
 

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Old 01-14-2009
 
#50
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Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
I think that the difference between toe nails and an embryo are quite clear: The embryo has the potentiality to become an individual with a personality. Is any embryo fair game for harvesting under your definition?
Who cares if it has the potential to become a personality? It isn't one at the moment, so we may do with it as we wish just as we can with other forms of human tissue. Unless of course you're one of them religious folks to whom "all human life is sacred from conception".
 
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Old 01-15-2009
 
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You do realize that people who aren't religious have that same view right HV? I have a friend who is "non-religious" as he calls it and believes that same principle in slightly different wordage.

Here's a hypothetical people: I can theoretically take an undifferentiated cell from the spinal column of a healthy individual and coax it into forming an embryo with proper genetic (chromosome additions, gene therapy, etc.) and nutritional additions. Would you treat that as the same situation as a "normal" embryo formed from a sperm and egg fusing or would it not be a different set of circumstances?
 
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Old 01-15-2009
 
#52
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Originally Posted by H0teLVi0LeT View Post
Unless of course you're one of them religious folks to whom "all human life is sacred from conception".
Why is that an irrational position, though? Because you associate it with religion?

I believe I have explained to you before that I am not "religious". I'm not saying that to disassociate myself from religious people, but I wish to dispel the wanton mocking attitude that is reflected in what I quoted above. Religion is not needed to come to the conclusion that human life begins at conception and there are ethical rules and restrictions that arise from that conclusion.
 

Last edited by WindowlessHouse; 01-15-2009 at 02:50 AM.
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Old 01-15-2009
 
#53
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Originally Posted by viperjo View Post
You do realize that people who aren't religious have that same view right HV? I have a friend who is "non-religious" as he calls it and believes that same principle in slightly different wordage.
Well in this case the exception proves the rule, because as a general rule of thumb, those whom believe in life at conception tend to be religious zealots. If you happen to find an occasional atheist or two every once in a while, it will not invalidate my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viperjo
Here's a hypothetical people: I can theoretically take an undifferentiated cell from the spinal column of a healthy individual and coax it into forming an embryo with proper genetic (chromosome additions, gene therapy, etc.) and nutritional additions. Would you treat that as the same situation as a "normal" embryo formed from a sperm and egg fusing or would it not be a different set of circumstances?
The same, the circumstances are entirely irrelevant in my view.

And what if theres a leak or a condom breaks while I am having sex with my girl because I was going a bit rough? Because a microscopic 23 chromosome cells fuses with another 23 chromosome cell and becomes a zygote, my girl should now be virtually imprisoned for the next 9 months to give birth to an unwanted baby, risking her health (and perhaps her life when it come time to give birth), screwing over any sort of plans or ambitions she had over the next year just so they can put the little runt into an adoption facility where the chances that he/she will end up getting adopted or growing up as a successful individual (instead of becoming a welfare leech) are pretty fucking slim? What for? That is retarded.

You don't know when intelligent human life begins? Good for you, because that's not necessarily an objective fact (if it was, we'd be able to define it). So let's give it an arbitrary and reasonable timeframe, as in first 3,4, or 5 months after pregnancy, abortion is legal. What precisely is detrimental about that? Nothing, but it can surely prevent a lot of unwanted pregnancies and births.
 
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Old 01-16-2009
 
#54
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Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
I think that the difference between toe nails and an embryo are quite clear: The embryo has the potential to become an individual with a personality. Is any embryo fair game for harvesting under your definition?
Yes.

The argument from potential personhood here is garbage, IMO. Millions of sperm never make the cut, but each one has the potential to make a person. Fertilized eggs often fail to implant in the uteran wall and are flushed out, each one a potential human. Potential means "Not now, but could be later". Potential gets exploited, squandered, and unrealized all the time. There is a big difference between a potential outcome and an actual one.

The lives of actual people take priority over any potential ones.

I would argue that blastocysts created for the purpose of harvesting stem cells aren't even potential humans because there's no way that any of them will ever turn into another person. They wouldn't ever be created if they weren't being harvested. So the whole "potential person" thing falls through there since it would never happen.

The stem cells that are harvested from them do have a very realistic potential to cure many diseases and disabilities though. And it's a potential which can be realized since that's what they're being made for.
 

Last edited by Golgo 13; 01-16-2009 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 01-16-2009
 
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Given the viewpoint that the potential for human life is considered a responsibility at its earliest conception, at what point are scientists morally obligated to improve birthing technology to the point where intended pregnancies are approaching a 100% success rate, or face prosecution for negligence? Considering the spontaneous abortion rate of pregnancies is something like 50%, whom do we prosecute when a woman loses a child?
 
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Old 01-17-2009
 
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The problem with the 'all life is as one' argument lies not in its main issues, but in its side issues, should a 5-year-old be able to vote, drink or enlist? They are, after all, human.

In biological terms, before about 25 weeks, a foetus is incapable of sustaining even the most basic biological processes and is completely reliant on the mother, so it's my view that up until that time abortion should be legal.
 
 

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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
Given the viewpoint that the potential for human life is considered a responsibility at its earliest conception, at what point are scientists morally obligated to improve birthing technology to the point where intended pregnancies are approaching a 100% success rate, or face prosecution for negligence? Considering the spontaneous abortion rate of pregnancies is something like 50%, whom do we prosecute when a woman loses a child?
Your questions are odd, but they are both based on the repercussions on the law given the idea that human life begins at conception. The justice system handles analogous scenarios correctly and I have no problems appealing to it.

Punishing scientists for not inventing something? That's absurd. Do we prosecute scientists for not inventing a cure for cancer fast enough? I don't think so. Llikewise, for the question you asked. Now if such a thing was within their capacity and they were intentionally witholding an unambiuously helpful technique that would save lives (embryo, fetus, child, or adult), there would be a problem.

There shouldn't be any prosecutions for spontaneous abortion, just like there isn't now. Golgo tried to make a similar point, but it doesn't amount to much. Such occurances are inherently unintentional, and would be handled like any other unforeseen/unpreventable tragedy. No one is guilty of a crime.

Neither case would end in a result that you would object to, I would think.
 

Last edited by WindowlessHouse; 01-18-2009 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 01-18-2009
 
#58
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Abortions in the early stages of a woman's pregnancy are a result of unintentional impregnation, so I guess that means abortion ought to be legal too with that same logic.
 
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Old 01-19-2009
 
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Punishing scientists for not inventing something? That's absurd. Do we prosecute scientists for not inventing a cure for cancer fast enough? I don't think so. Llikewise, for the question you asked. Now if such a thing was within their capacity and they were intentionally witholding an unambiuously helpful technique that would save lives (embryo, fetus, child, or adult), there would be a problem.

There shouldn't be any prosecutions for spontaneous abortion, just like there isn't now. Golgo tried to make a similar point, but it doesn't amount to much. Such occurances are inherently unintentional, and would be handled like any other unforeseen/unpreventable tragedy. No one is guilty of a crime.

Neither case would end in a result that you would object to, I would think.
Our criminal justice system is built upon victimology. If there is no victim, there is no crime. However, in this case we are making a direct comparison from human embryo to human life. We can prosecute murderers for TWO murders if they kill a pregnant female, or take action that results in the abortion of the fetus, right? So, if we are conflating the terms of what is medically feasible as a human being, then as soon as an embryo is lost, a murder investigation should be launched. A coroner should be employed and a cause of death should be published.

Women that get pregnant should be required to register their pregnancies in a Pregnancy Registry for review by criminal investigators upon each trimester. If a woman missed appointments to an OB/GYN or failed to follow recommended nutritional requirements and subsequently "lost" the fetus, she should be charged with murder. Mothers who birth babies with ostensible birth defects should be tried for criminal negligence.

If you are going to claim that doctors and women who have abortions should be criminalized due to moral objections based on a system of beliefs, I agree. Let's just make sure we go all the way, not stopping at some demihypocritical passive laws that in effect only enforce our moral objections when it's convenient.
 
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Old 01-19-2009
 
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Originally Posted by Genocide Alive
Our criminal justice system is built upon victimology. If there is no victim, there is no crime. However, in this case we are making a direct comparison from human embryo to human life. We can prosecute murderers for TWO murders if they kill a pregnant female, or take action that results in the abortion of the fetus, right? So, if we are conflating the terms of what is medically feasible as a human being, then as soon as an embryo is lost, a murder investigation should be launched. A coroner should be employed and a cause of death should be published.
We already prosecute for the murder of unborn children at least in California.
 

Last edited by WindowlessHouse; 01-19-2009 at 08:04 PM.
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