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Old 07-29-2008
 
#46
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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas View Post
When did they make that statement? When did they ever commit to reverting to SC1's interface?
Blizzcast 3.

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That's like saying that making a chair is not a conscious decision because that's just the shape you make chairs in.
Yeah, that guy that put together the game engine really considered the future of esports in Korea while he was deciding on the UI.
That's also why the number of units was capped at 255. They calculated based on past replays and player records that that would be the appropriate number.

Same with auto-surround. They decided that zerglings were a bit too weak in SC and that it was imbalanced. So they made the AI surround enemy marines/zealots all by themselves.
 
 

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Old 07-29-2008
 
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I'm not entirely sure the skill level of StarCraft II can be compared in a "higher-lower" way, to StarCraft. To be sure, SC2's skill level will be "different", but higher or lower? Impossible to tell at the time. Once the game is released and we can compare directly, we can tell.

Now, certainly many, many of the skills and techniques that were present in StarCraft will remain. Microing away from AoE attacks and spells, focusing fire, picking off targets of opprotunity, worker raids, teching, turtling. These are all things we will have in StarCraft II. We're still going to focus on the power-house units in battle, we're still going to see players dropping Lurkers and Templar and Seige Tanks on top of supply lines, and we'll still see players scrambling to miminize the damage from those drops.

Now, these things will remain, but the procedure of executing them, and countering them, will of course change. Base raids will no longer depend on rushing past an opponent's defenders to their workers, or performing a drop. All the races have alternatives now, Reapers, Infesters, Stalkers, Colossi, and maybe Drop Pods, I've sincerely lost count. The old strategies will be updated with new ways of performing them, and strategies that once didn't work, may. Nuking is more practical, Protoss infantry is no longer restricted by land-barriers thanks to Warp-In, and the Zerg can move beyond the borders of the Creep.

Now, the above is just an example of how the new and changed units may change the skill level. But the UI? Well it certainly has changed, many things that were once tedious are now easy. But is this a bad thing? Right-click sets a rally point, or sets a move command. Would it really make players more skillful, if that function was disabled and they had to have units move using the hotkeys? Well, yes. But is that a skill that a player's ability should depend on? No. There are many automated things in StarCraft we do not question because they make the game more fun and less tedious - right-click rally, hotkeys, Medics auto-healing, auto-acquring targets, and so forth.

Now, in the StarCraft II interface, we see this ramped up. Many things that were tedious in StarCraft, but required skill to do well, can now be done easily. Again, is this a bad thing? Yes, workers auto-mine when the rally is set to a mineral patch or a geyser. But you still have to build that worker, you still have to monitor the resource node to make sure it's not tapped out, you still have to command workers away from the node to build things, and you still have to protect them from attacks. Maintaining a good worker line takes a variety of minor skills, commanding workers to mine is one of those skills, but not the sole skill.

MBS, yes will make building many units easier. But keep in mind you could easily hotkey 8 barracks, one at a time, and a skilled player can tap each hotkey and the unit hotkey very quickly. MBS just makes them do it more quickly, in turn making the game faster and freeing up other hotkey slots for other purposes. Smartcasting allows players to command spell-casting units better, making them more practical and players won't have to worry about wasting energy, again, making battles go faster as spells can be cast more efficiently.

StarCraft II's skill level will be different from StarCraft in so many ways, it's difficult right now, to say if it's easier to harder. And even when released, some will find it harder, some will find it easier. That's just how it is.

I have said my piece, and I'm sure someone out there agrees with me 100%, and someone disagrees 100%. But here's my thoughts, take them as you will.
 
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Old 07-29-2008
 
#48
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Same with auto-surround. They decided that zerglings were a bit too weak in SC and that it was imbalanced. So they made the AI surround enemy marines/zealots all by themselves.
Auto-surround is not a "feature;" it isn't anything. That is, auto-surround is merely what happens when you have a good AI and you give the order "attack this unit." Having units sitting around doing nothing when they were told to attack is clearly the game getting in the way of, not just what the player wants, but what the player actually said to do.

It's one thing to bag on MBS, smart cast, and so forth. But to say that the AI should be, not merely simple, but actually willing to not do as the player directly said is utterly unacceptable. If I tell some units to move to a location, that means move there. For a unit to not move there is a game bug, not a feature, and certainly not a viable game design element.
 

Last edited by Nicol Bolas; 07-30-2008 at 01:03 AM.

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Old 07-29-2008
 
#49
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Originally Posted by Prometheus4096 View Post
Why should people when Brower has stated that unless they figure out a way to fix the problem they will have to revert to how things were in SC?
Had you considered that it was to avoid endless threads like this in the Battle.net forums?
Seriously, if you start a thread about MBS on the TL forums, they can temp ban you. I think that gives an idea on how hot the threads were.
MBS is a central mechanic to Warp-in, and "unlimited" unit selection is central to the Nydus Network. They simply cannot work without them. I seriously doubt that they would remove that, unless they feel that sales are going to be very low because of that, but we know that isn't the case. Quite the opposite, an RTS game, today, without MBS, with a 10 years old UI, won't sell as much as it can, because even if fans would buy the game, most people would not, or would buy it and then throw it, because it's a hassle to build and move your army. They would probably remove them if they feel that the game lost it's magic because of that, also. But as Karune was practically forced to leave his PC at the last WWI, i don't think the game had lost his magic, right?

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I could say the same thing. The sooner you people accept the soul of Starcraft, the easier it will be for you. And the more fun you will have. What if somehow Blizzard makes the game just as difficult, in the exact same way, but only while being able to claim it has a 'modern UI'? They might do that, if it's possible. Which means you will need just as much multitasking. You then just can't blame it on the interface or suggest the tasks are 'mundane'.
So, you think that the soul of Starcraft was fighting the ancient UI? The soul of Starcraft is balance, it's in good unit design, and fast game speed, and to have the players busy all the time. That's, IMHO, the real soul of Starcraft, and that cannot be weakened by MBS, because when you play a SC game, it's you against the other player.
And also, how do you know that it isn't already as difficult, with things like cliff-climbing units, and new transportation methods? Not to mention you aren't the only one that gets easier macro, your enemy also gets this benefit! I doubt that he would just sit in his base, while he builds units, he would be trying to destroy you, with any free time he gets.

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Originally Posted by Prometheus4096 View Post
That's also why the number of units was capped at 255. They calculated based on past replays and player records that that would be the appropriate number.
Oh, how big of a coincidence that 255 is the biggest number that would fit in 8 bits! It should be like a cosmic event that the same number was the result calculated from replays and player records!

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Originally Posted by Prometheus4096 View Post
Same with auto-surround. They decided that zerglings were a bit too weak in SC and that it was imbalanced. So they made the AI surround enemy marines/zealots all by themselves.
My God! How difficult is to understand that units that don't bump against each other would quickly form a semi-circle when trying to attack the same spot at the center of the group? Auto-surround never existed! It's only a good movement AI.


I don't fear the new game anymore, i'm sure that players would still need to be as fast as they can. It's only that they would need to be faster for other motives.
 

Last edited by Norfindel; 07-29-2008 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 07-29-2008
 
#50
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Ok ok, I'll try to be more on topic than that.

I agree with Norfindal especially on the part about the unit AI. I think it makes much more sense to have the units act in such a way that you think to yourself "Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted them to do!" Not sit there thinking to yourself, "Why for the love of all that is good and holy did that unit just do that!! NO...NOT THERE YOU IDIOT!! ARRRGGHH!" I really like the auto surround.

And also with the 255 thing. That is quite obviously from an 8 bit limitation as Norfindal also pointed out.

By the way, Kudos to Drake. Even if my post was deleted it's nice to see a forum with limitations.
 

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Old 07-30-2008
 
#51
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What if somehow Blizzard makes the game just as difficult, in the exact same way, but only while being able to claim it has a 'modern UI'? They might do that, if it's possible.
So, you're suggesting that Blizzard should lie to people, telling them that the game has modern UI features when it actually doesn't? That's even less likely than them not having modern UI features, and twice as foolish.

Reviewers would utterly eviscerate the game. It'll be like when sharks get into their "kill frenzy" upon detecting blood. Or like a pack of hyenas that are tearing into the flesh of their kill, when one of them flings a piece of meat through the air and another one leaps up and catches it in his salivating jaws.

It's one thing to do something stupid. It's quite another to lie about it to the very people you're trying to entice. People don't like that. They don't like that a lot.
 

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Old 07-30-2008
 
#52
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He's saying that if Blizzard could make SC2 similarly hard AND claim that it had modern UI, they would do it.



Anyways, the main argument against MBS isn't that it removes multitasking altogether, it's that MBS (and automine) reduce multitasking to the point where any increases in micro don't matter; units can only be microed to a certain extent.

During tense micro moments in SC1, mid-level players would often have 4-5 probes stacked up near their Nexii, and only one or two gateways running. Why? Because they lack the ability of progamers to get their base running and save their units at the same time; therefore they have to rely on blind-building with hotkeys, but 0p9p8p7d6d won't get their whole base running. This multitasking skill separates the mid-level players from the top-level players, and now they can just hit 0ppp9dzdzdzdz for perfect macro. It takes less than a second, and takes almost nothing away from the units being microed.
 
 

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Old 07-30-2008
 
#53
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Originally Posted by roegi View Post
He's saying that if Blizzard could make SC2 similarly hard AND claim that it had modern UI, they would do it.



Anyways, the main argument against MBS isn't that it removes multitasking altogether, it's that MBS (and automine) reduce multitasking to the point where any increases in micro don't matter; units can only be microed to a certain extent.
Even if this statement is true, what is the point of making macro management just for the sake of macro management? I do understand why some people don't like automine, even though I personally like it. As far as MBS goes though, it's nothing more than allowing the player to execute what they would like to do with less clicky clicky. I still do not see how this one little thing will be so detrimental to the game. Pros are still going to pwn nubs hands down. There will not be any nubs pwning pros accidentally because the macro system is too easy. It's not going to happen. I don't even think it would happen to mid-level players.

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Originally Posted by roegi View Post
During tense micro moments in SC1, mid-level players would often have 4-5 probes stacked up near their Nexii, and only one or two gateways running. Why? Because they lack the ability of progamers to get their base running and save their units at the same time; therefore they have to rely on blind-building with hotkeys, but 0p9p8p7d6d won't get their whole base running. This multitasking skill separates the mid-level players from the top-level players, and now they can just hit 0ppp9dzdzdzdz for perfect macro. It takes less than a second, and takes almost nothing away from the units being microed.
Lols, less than a second? If that takes you less than a second to enter that sequence I don't even think you remember what it is to be a nub. On a more serious note, it sounds like your problem with this would be fixed by disabling automining alone. Don't even need to take out MBS.
 
 

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Old 07-30-2008
 
#54
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An FPS is completely centered around quick reactions and adaptation, isn't it? Autoaim gives everyone more free time to plan ahead, but does it affect the skill gap? Also, memorization of a practiced routine generally works out fairly nicely in RTS games, at least until they produce a build that can counter yours. Of course, creative builds are more rewarded, producing more wins until players figure out a counter, but in the low and mid-levels (like in other sports), it's all about copying higher-tier players.
Of course autoaim=Improved UI right? So having MBS automatically produces the right mix of units? cool. Keep in mind improved UI might have its own unseen challenges... using your example, have you ever tried to headshot with autoaim on?

What i said has nothing to do with more free time to PLAN ahead. I clearly stated it gives you more time to EXECUTE said plans, in fact you will probably have less planning time as less time is spent around the base, go figure. If the skill gap decreases then obviously the "better" player is not nearly as good as he/she thinks he is... Either that or learning new games is clearly beyond him.

Yes memorization and routine do make important elements of an RTS. However having more free time on my hands shouldnt be the major factor in determining whether i am a better player than you or not. Rather my ability to make proper tactical and strategic decisions and execute them should determine this. And remember, despite the name of real-time-strategy game, it is not actually only about strategy (Build orders and the like), as fun (key word) games almost always center around creative tactical decisions, which no amount of memorization can make you good at.... unless your playing a computer....

And not everyone copies build orders... i don't remember ever looking up a single build order, i always made my own for better or worse and still ended up with a positive record .... It always felt so much more satisfying and FUN that way.
 
 

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Old 07-30-2008
 
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If you macro right before or during a battle, there's only 1 unit you need. The fastest one.


And if you don't copy build orders, then you didn't even reach the beginner level yet. Just like every chess player that wants to be decent needs to learn opening theory, same for BOs with SC.
 
 

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Old 07-30-2008
 
#56
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If you macro right before or during a battle, there's only 1 unit you need. The fastest one.
Didn't understand that...

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Originally Posted by Prometheus4096 View Post
And if you don't copy build orders, then you didn't even reach the beginner level yet. Just like every chess player that wants to be decent needs to learn opening theory, same for BOs with SC.
Agreed, but sometimes you can discover things for yourself. Like I discovered how to proxy barracks and 9 pool and stuff, all by myself. I made graphs and charts and played some 3000 games, collecting data, then decided which build I wanted to follow. It was fun.
 
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Old 07-30-2008
 
#57
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Didn't understand that...
You want to reinforce the battle as quickly as possible. So you want to make zealots as protoss and zerglings or ultralisks as zerg.

So yeah you would build all the same unit. And even if you don't want that, there's enough hotkeys.

Also, I don't like the new way. Too much clicking involved. Even more clicking for zerg, actually. No multitasking but a lot of clicking; exactly what you don't want. It's like a 'both sides lose'-compromise.
 
 

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Old 07-30-2008
 
#58
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You want to reinforce the battle as quickly as possible. So you want to make zealots as protoss and zerglings or ultralisks as zerg.

So yeah you would build all the same unit. And even if you don't want that, there's enough hotkeys.

Also, I don't like the new way. Too much clicking involved. Even more clicking for zerg, actually. No multitasking but a lot of clicking; exactly what you don't want. It's like a 'both sides lose'-compromise.
If it's quick, but the enemy has Archons, you would be better building other units.

Let's see, in SC1, if you have 4 Hatcheries, and you want to build 12 Hydralisks, you would do: 1SH, 2SH, 3SH, 4SH (12 keys) while in SC2 you would press 1SHHHHHHHHHHHH (14 keys). What happends with lots of units? 10 Hatch, 30 Hydra in SC1 (nearly-impossible to happend): there would be 30 keypresses, while in SC2 would be 2+30 keypresses, only 2 more. You always press just 2 more keys than in SC1.

To resume, the number of keypresses in SC1 is: 3x(number_of_units / 3) = number_of_units keypresses
In SC2: 2 keys (one for select all Hatch, other for select all Larvae) + number_of_units keypresses
 

Last edited by Norfindel; 07-30-2008 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 07-30-2008
 
#59
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No. You either have fast units, or no units. If the opponent has archons then the archons mop up your remnants before your archons arrive. But then of course you already lost.
 
 

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Old 07-30-2008
 
#60
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No. You either have fast units, or no units. If the opponent has archons then the archons mop up your remnants before your archons arrive. But then of course you already lost.
Never heared about retreating?
When your Dragoons are ready, you can use them against the Archons, instead of losing tons of Zealots.
 
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