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Old 11-20-2008
 
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Default The American education system

I came across this somewhat old ABC article on the web, and I thought it pointed out a lot of problems and solutions to the American education system today.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338


But can we get any of this to work? Can America get off it's sorry ass and put forth a law or will we just fall back into the same old rountine?

The most noticeable quote for me.

Quote:
The longer kids stay in American schools, the worse they do in international competition. They do worse than kids from poorer countries that spend much less money on education, ranking behind not only Belgium but also Poland, the Czech Republic and South Korea.

 
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Old 11-20-2008
 
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Old 11-20-2008
 
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When it comes to education, the key is to be honest and self-aware of what your objectives are.

If your objective is to encourage critical thinking and cultivate leadership, private schools are for you. If your objective is to create a loyal and servile population, public education -and the indoctrination/behavior modification that comes with it- is for you. There are valid arguments for both schools of thought (no pun intended), and there are of course exceptions to the rule as well.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are multiple definitions of "a good education," yet so rarely are these definitions fleshed out.
 

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Old 11-20-2008
 
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In countries like South Korea you also have periodic examinations where if you don't pass you either get kicked out of the school system altogether or are sent to some remedial school geared less towards academics and more towards turning you into some kind of laborer. That's part of the reason why certain Asian countries in particular rank higher academically than the United States.

You don't have the world's largest, most nimble, and most resilient economy if you're training the next generation inadequately, for generation after generation. We've had fifty years of people complaining about how bad our public schools are. After a while you realize how silly they are.

The only places America has trouble with public schools is 1) the teacher's union, the NEA, and 2) inner city schools. If the NEA was gone American education would be so much better. Also, if there was some kind of stricter local oversight over school boards. School boards basically can do whatever the hell they want with no oversight from anyone.
 
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Old 11-20-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullet2head View Post
I came across this somewhat old ABC article on the web, and I thought it pointed out a lot of problems and solutions to the American education system today.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338


But can we get any of this to work? Can America get off it's sorry ass and put forth a law or will we just fall back into the same old rountine?

The most noticeable quote for me.
I am on the fence about privatizing public schools, which is what this article advocates in case anyone is wondering. I havent read too much on the subject, but if anyone could post a detailed plan about how it would work, I would appreciate it.

Regardless on how the government decides to deal with the problem, whether it be public or private, the most important change that needs to happen is an update in curiculum. As long as all schools share the same updated curiculum and are judged by the same standards, it doesnt matter to me if they are privatized or not.

History is a fine and interesting subject, but I honestly do not think it should be a requirement after grade school. There are more important things to cover as a child becomes an adult. Eight years is more than enough time to cover this.

IMO, high school should be all about preparing young adults to enter the world. Depending on which route is chosen, the classes should be centered around making the person a functional member of society. If a student decides that he or she would like to attend college, than the classes should be made up of general pre-reqs for the desired major. I say general pre-reqs because the student probably will not have decided on a major just yet. If a student chooses not to go to college, the classes should be centered around trade schools and the like.

I think all students should be required to take a class on current events, social dillemas, and how the government works. This will help to get more young people interested in politics and the way the country is being run. You could even merge it with history if you dont like the idea of getting rid of it. Classes could discuss current events and see how they relate to historic problems that share similarities.

I guess what I am trying to say is that everyone doesnt go to college, and shouldnt be treated like they will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H0teLVi0LeT View Post
Well you must recognize that our most prestigious institutions are still by far some of the best in the world.
That is all good and fine for the .001% of our students that end up going there. The problem lies in public schools, which seem to be trying to keep its graduates out of those prestigious institutions.
Quote:
However, on average, I agree. Our education system sucks and I think it's a lost cause. 99% of the people I come across at school are retards and do not know a damn thing about the outside world, do not know any foreign languages, have a very mediocre knowledge of social sciences, and usually suck at mathematics/science/engineering related fields.
I agree that it sucks, but I dont think it is a lost cause. If it is, than America is a lost cause. I cant speak to anything you have said about the people you met in college, but I remember high school and it was pretty bad.
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The country's future lays on the backs of a few individuals like myself.
Big words. I hope for the countrys sake that you live up to them.
Quote:
Seriously though? Our education system ought to be more like Russia's or Japan's.
I dont know much about Russias, and the only thing I know about Japans is that there is a test that decides whether or not you go to college, and kids/parents stress are crazy when it comes to scoring high on it.
Quote:
Plus our lazy culture is the problem. No other nation's culture on the entire earth is more oriented on "entertainment" than our own. Eventually the world will become a much harsher place and perhaps people will get their act together.
I hope your right.
Quote:
But seriously, most of us living in the US and abroad I think can agree. The vast majority of people that we meet are fucking retarded.
I think with the correct public school changes, this problem can be curved to the point where only half the people you meet are fucking retarded.
Quote:
Edit: There's absolutely no fucking drive in many people. It's all about "drinking", "smoking", "getting laid", "hanging out", and trying to find "the easiest moderately paying job" so that you can buy yourself a nice little house and watch monday night football on the couch while drinking booze and collecting a government paycheck for the rest of your life.
There are always going to be people like this (as far as the drinking, smoking, and fucking), but I dont think a lot of what you described is right... or coherent. What is your idea of a moderately paying job? If the person is employed, why are they collecting a government paycheck? Is this reffering to social security?
Quote:
These are the expectations. No drive. No motivation. No ambitions whatsoever. Most people I know will end up working in a shitty minimum wage job for the rest of their fucking lives or end up living under a bridge in a decade or 2. Either that, or there's going to be some nasty ass warfare (either internally or abroad) coming our way.
Like I said, your right about many people with no drive, no motivation, etc. But I think you are underestimating the extent that which inner-city public schools are fucked up. It is true, many of the children dont attend, and that is there choice, but for the kids that do it is a joke. In Philadelphia, there are people with absolutely no training, teaching with little/no materials, about subjects they know nothing about. It isnt fair, it isnt good for the country, and it needs to be fixed.
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Old 11-20-2008
 
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I'd agree that our primary and secondary schools suck, having been in one for most of my life. Arguably I've learned more from the internet than I did from any of my middle or high school classes put together. Our colleges are superb though, no question about it.

The No Child Left Behind Act would be helping our schools a lot if they got rid of the sanctions. Unfortunately states and critical schools under the system just cheat their way into assuring they don't get their federal funds taken away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
You don't have the world's largest, most nimble, and most resilient economy if you're training the next generation inadequately, for generation after generation. We've had fifty years of people complaining about how bad our public schools are. After a while you realize how silly they are.
Whats up with all our stupid citizens then? Are statistics just lying, or do people here just choose to be stupid?

If we're just choosing to be dumb we still have an education problem.
Quote:
The only places America has trouble with public schools is 1) the teacher's union, the NEA, and 2) inner city schools. If the NEA was gone American education would be so much better. Also, if there was some kind of stricter local oversight over school boards. School boards basically can do whatever the hell they want with no oversight from anyone.
I definitely agree, however, I don't think those are the only problems. Probably the biggest problem is that we don't have much competition amongst public primary and secondary schools. Our colleges are competitive, and look at them. Fucking awesome. Most European countries and Japan have competitive schools as well, and their public schools are superb.

The No Child Left Behind Act tried to encourage such competition, however, their way of dealing with "critical" schools or schools that basically did bad on testing, is to removing federal funding if they don't improve. Makes sense if your trying to encourage them to do better I suppose, but it isn't working, to help create competitiveness much. Parents just have the option of sending their kid to another public school if their school in the area sucks balls (meaning its a critical school and has been one for at least 2 years). The way colleges and schools elsewhere in the world create this competitiveness is different.

Instead, since standardized tests are created state by state, certain states just make the test easier and just fucking great, now statistics show certain states are scoring "better" when really they aren't. Easy loophole if you don't want funding cut to your schools I guess.
 
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Old 11-20-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H0teLVi0LeT View Post
Well you must recognize that our most prestigious institutions are still by far some of the best in the world.
The top institutions are largely self-fullfilling prophecies. If you're going to select the very best to attend, surprise surprise, the quality is going to go up. It has hardly anything to do with the education offered at those institutions, more with the selection process.

People of exceptional skill tend to do well even at mediocre universities. People of unexceptional skill at prestigious institutions don't tend to do better than their peers of similar skill at mediocre universities. This rules out educational quality as an explanation.

The only difference that institutions like Harvard, Oxford and the like do offer is its selection process that provides an invaluable network to those attending. Not to mention that it will also attract a lot of bright researchers, which is a great pro if you want to do something in your field of choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
In countries like South Korea you also have periodic examinations where if you don't pass you either get kicked out of the school system altogether or are sent to some remedial school geared less towards academics and more towards turning you into some kind of laborer. That's part of the reason why certain Asian countries in particular rank higher academically than the United States.
This has absolutly nothing to do with academic rankings. As you well should know, but as usual you prefer to talk out of your ass instead of putting some thought behind it.

Academic rankings are not based upon kicking people out of the education system. The process you describe is actually quite common among the major OECD countries. It's called selection. Something the ol' US of A is no stranger too.
 
 

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Old 11-20-2008
 
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Well THAT entire article was just a code word for "school vouchers", i.e. the choice he was referring to. That's fine and dandy, and competition GENERALLY encourages improvement. But using vouchers and governement tax credits?

Here't the deal:

A school voucher, also called an education voucher, is a certificate issued by the government by which parents can pay for the education of their children at a school of their choice, rather than the public school to which they are assigned.
That's something that on the surface seems nice. But would it really fix the problem?

For one thing, there more or less is already choice between most public schools, and many of the laws in place not allowing whites in to certain schools are integration laws, many of which need to be reformed, or possibly removed. I say that reluctantly. Also, there's this assumption that private schools are better. Facts: "One reason given for being allowed to choose private schools is the belief that private schools offer better education – a belief disputed in a 2006 Dept. of Education study.[18] This report concludes that average test scores for reading and mathematics, when adjusted for student and school characteristics, tend to be very similar among public schools and private schools." Hmm...ok...so...

Also, as more people go into private schools, demand would increase. And since Private schools are PRIVATE, they can raise tuition, meaning the government would have to pay MORE, or not any more, which means that "choice" would be rather limited. Also, many of these vouchers go to existing private school students. For ex., 76% of the money handed out for Arizona’s voucher program has gone to children already in private schools. THEY could already afford this "choice."

Here's more: "With a greater pool of applicants, the private schools could be more selective over which students to admit, excluding those who do not belong to a preferred group (for instance, religion or ethnicity), those with disabilities such as autism or multiple sclerosis, and those with disciplinary problems.

"By law, the public schools must accept any student. So that they would presumably end up with all students whom the private schools turn away for such reasons.[20] This would likely further undermine the reputation and competitiveness of the public schools, leading to a vicious circle that tends toward the total abolition of the public schools and perhaps the end of universal education.

"Although since the school would essentially become a business, just like any other business; discrimination by race, social class or religion would be illegal and thus force schools to claim that the student simply didn't meet their standards or more likely, simply avoid saying why they wouldn't take such a student thus allowing such abuses. Just as a medical doctor cannot reject a patient based on such discrimination neither could a school openly reject a prospective student. However, as in the case of health care, rejection on monetary terms would still exist, and this is likely to discriminate in a similar manner as economic theory would suggest."

Which leads to my next point, as private schools will ALSO be negatively affected. Whenever the government gives you money, they "own" you. Private schools are different because of they lack of connection w/ the gov't. As soon as gov't tax credits begin paying for the schools, government control will inevitably increase. They'll become more like public schools, and things like religious private schools would be instantly in danger. Will this help the private school? Nah.

Also, our tax dollars will be GOING to these private institutions. But unlike the the control we have of the public school system (school board elections, referenduims, etc.), we'd have zero effect on private schools. Taxpayer accountability? Heh...

You see my point? Vouchers are messy. As more students leave public schools, those schools would often loose money THEY WOULD get from the Governement, as it would go to private schools. Now, whatever John Stossel says, but money matters. Public schools wouldn't be able to compete and would fail. Stossel's last paragraph is nothing more than a wet dream. Public schools would fail, and private schools would be overcrowded and become more like "public" schools.

Something needs to be done. But it sure as HELL ain't vouchers.

------

Someone brought up NCLB. Now, in theory, it's a nice idea, but it was severely underfunded, and the reliance on tests is absurd. I mean, if one kid misses the test, a school can be in trouble. Make-ups? Ha! Also, it penalized/s English as a second language kid-dominated schools for obvious reason. They are given the same test in the same English. Yes they should learn the language, but that's why they are in school- to learn it. State funding should rely on that? No. No to the NCLB.

The NEA? There is some anti-union feelings here! Can the NEA go overboard? Yes. But teachers would be fucked 10 times over w/out the NEA- it's a necessary organization. It needs tweaking, but it is needed. Don't blame the NEA for this. That's absurd.

Overall, we need better curriculum, and we need more accountability. How that's managed his difficult, and throwing money at it won't work. It's efficient use of money, i.e. more oversight.

Now, there's one thing often forgotten. While, say, Singapore's students TROUNCE us in Math and Science, American schools thrive in teaching of creativity. Sounds cheesy I know. But our system has a very heavy discussion focus, something missing in so many other countries. As a result, whole memorization can take a hint, critical thinking is at a high.

The world isn't over yet. Except if we have more vouchers.
 
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Old 11-20-2008
 
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Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
For one thing, there more or less is already choice between most public schools, and many of the laws in place not allowing whites in to certain schools are integration laws, many of which need to be reformed, or possibly removed. I say that reluctantly. Also, there's this assumption that private schools are better. Facts: "One reason given for being allowed to choose private schools is the belief that private schools offer better education – a belief disputed in a 2006 Dept. of Education study.[18] This report concludes that average test scores for reading and mathematics, when adjusted for student and school characteristics, tend to be very similar among public schools and private schools." Hmm...ok...so...
Just come out and say it: Integration laws are as racist as segregation laws. Was that so difficult?

What the hell does "adjusted for student and school characteristics" mean? Does that mean "adjusting" a higher scoring school because it more white students with some formula so that an minority-filled, inner city school with lower scores is on the same level? "Tend to be similar"? After "adjustments"? What a joke.

Make the bad schools more like the good schools. It's a really simple formula of seeing what works and replicating it, as opposed to retaining the status quo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
Also, as more people go into private schools, demand would increase. And since Private schools are PRIVATE, they can raise tuition, meaning the government would have to pay MORE, or not any more, which means that "choice" would be rather limited. Also, many of these vouchers go to existing private school students. For ex., 76% of the money handed out for Arizona’s voucher program has gone to children already in private schools. THEY could already afford this "choice."
Demand increase would lead to more private schools being built.

And it's not like the public school system is magically going to be eradicated because of vouchers. There are good public schools. Families will choose to go to the good public schools and they will continue to move to areas where the good public schools exist. Stop trying to peddle this idea that vouchers are suddenly going to destroy the public school system. It's a lie, and amounts to fear mongering.

And about private school students getting vouchers, so what? Giving people tax money back that they aren't using for the public schools seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
Here's more: "With a greater pool of applicants, the private schools could be more selective over which students to admit, excluding those who do not belong to a preferred group (for instance, religion or ethnicity), those with disabilities such as autism or multiple sclerosis, and those with disciplinary problems.
"There might be discrimination, so we shouldn't even try."

Quote:
Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
"By law, the public schools must accept any student. So that they would presumably end up with all students whom the private schools turn away for such reasons.[20] This would likely further undermine the reputation and competitiveness of the public schools, leading to a vicious circle that tends toward the total abolition of the public schools and perhaps the end of universal education.
More fear mongering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
"Although since the school would essentially become a business, just like any other business; discrimination by race, social class or religion would be illegal and thus force schools to claim that the student simply didn't meet their standards or more likely, simply avoid saying why they wouldn't take such a student thus allowing such abuses. Just as a medical doctor cannot reject a patient based on such discrimination neither could a school openly reject a prospective student. However, as in the case of health care, rejection on monetary terms would still exist, and this is likely to discriminate in a similar manner as economic theory would suggest."
Public schools would still exist. Since you have already argued that private and public schools are "equal" in terms of test scores, your discrimination arguments fail because they contradict themselves.

Acknowledge that one is better than the other.

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Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
Which leads to my next point, as private schools will ALSO be negatively affected. Whenever the government gives you money, they "own" you. Private schools are different because of they lack of connection w/ the gov't. As soon as gov't tax credits begin paying for the schools, government control will inevitably increase. They'll become more like public schools, and things like religious private schools would be instantly in danger. Will this help the private school? Nah.
Remember, vouchers are a state/local government program and they aren't even being considered at the federal level.

Government control will not increase beyond what it already is. School choice would lessen the government stranglehold over education because government wouldn't be able to assume that families will send their kids to a public school. The lack of competition is what has lead to degeneration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
Also, our tax dollars will be GOING to these private institutions. But unlike the the control we have of the public school system (school board elections, referenduims, etc.), we'd have zero effect on private schools. Taxpayer accountability? Heh...
They aren't "our tax dollars". We're talking about state and local tax dollars. Money that is circulated through their respective communities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
You see my point? Vouchers are messy. As more students leave public schools, those schools would often loose money THEY WOULD get from the Governement, as it would go to private schools. Now, whatever John Stossel says, but money matters. Public schools wouldn't be able to compete and would fail. Stossel's last paragraph is nothing more than a wet dream. Public schools would fail, and private schools would be overcrowded and become more like "public" schools.
More fear mongering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by areese87 View Post
Something needs to be done. But it sure as HELL ain't vouchers.
I want more vouchers. Let failing public schools fail so that they can finally be restructured into something better. Let the good public schools continue to thrive. And let people get out of shitty school systems and send their kids to a good private school if they want to.

Vouchers, themselves, aren't the problem. None of your arguments are a direct attack against vouchers. You couch behind a notion that there might be discrimination, which a bogus red herring.
 
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Old 11-20-2008
 
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Old 11-21-2008
 
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Schools should all be privatized and should look like this. Add vocational/technical training and you have a free man able to pursue any interest he wishes.
 
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Old 11-22-2008
 
#12
United States The Hawaiian
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I think schools should be more like colleges and teachers should encourage discussion in class. And I don't think students should all have to learn the same subjects, you should be able to learn whatever you want. History teachers don't need to learn calculus, and engineers don't need to learn psychology.
 
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Old 11-22-2008
 
#13
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Specialisation can only occur after certain basics have been mastered.
 
 

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Old 11-22-2008
 
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Here is how I would run the education system.

Grades K-6 = Same as today. Then, for 3 years, all children would be forced into social labor. Construction, fast food. Infrastructure jobs. During this time they could decide whether they wanted to pursue these jobs, or upon reaching the age of 15, continue their education into other areas that "require" more learning - doctor, lawyer, etc.

If you want to give kids drive to excel, you need to make them see how shitty it can get without education.
 
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Old 11-22-2008
 
#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Just come out and say it: Integration laws are as racist as segregation laws. Was that so difficult?
And I suppose we could just "will" integration. Or maybe let segregation slide, as it's a "state right." You can't solve the race problem without RECOGNIZING race. It's a very true paradox. Race, yes, is a social construct, relationally/historically/spatially contingent, and all that. BUT IT IS REAL. It may not have biological meanings (it doesn't!), but it's real, and you can't pretend to be colorblind to force racism out of the way. Should certain laws be changed/removed? Sure. All? No. Your delusion about how to address racism is why it still exists. It's so amusing that party of Civil Rights is accused of continuing racism. But this is not related,

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
What the hell does "adjusted for student and school characteristics" mean? Does that mean "adjusting" a higher scoring school because it more white students with some formula so that an minority-filled, inner city school with lower scores is on the same level? "Tend to be similar"? After "adjustments"? What a joke.
"Tend to be similar' means about the same. As far as adjustments, I looked at the original source. Only vague explaintions remained. So, I'll remove this study from the argument. In fact, let's assume that private schools are, on a whole, better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Demand increase would lead to more private schools being built.
Yes, while supply/demand priniciples don't always work, let's assume it does, and supply increases to meet demand. Hmm...so private schools increase. Ok, and public schools (that may be "failing") lose population. Private schools have the power to deny whoever, leaving many who "fail" the entrance test (whether by intelligence, race, disability, religion) to attend the abandoned public schools which get LESS funding as voucher money from local/state/federal (you bet your ass "state" money to schools has federal connections!) fund private schools. So...hmm...public schools already failing are left for the "failures" to never succeed as funding disappears. Children are left behind.

Who is helped? Generally the upper class, and much public schooling will diminish. The beauty of public schooling is that no one is denied. That option SHOULD NEVER be in danger. The answer is fix public schools. Giving the middle-upper classes money to go to private schools (and STATE/LOCAL funding to PRIVATE institutions) will not help public schools improve. This is just a move not to fix public schooling, but help private schooling. It's obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
And it's not like the public school system is magically going to be eradicated because of vouchers. There are good public schools. Families will choose to go to the good public schools and they will continue to move to areas where the good public schools exist. Stop trying to peddle this idea that vouchers are suddenly going to destroy the public school system. It's a lie, and amounts to fear mongering.
Call it fearmongering. Many of those Good public schools are magnet programs, thus many will still be denied (I support magnet programs, and support basic public schooling. It's unfortunate that one often hurts the other. I benefited much from magnet programs, and I completely understood resentment from residential schools). Vouchers WILL hurt public schooling, as it will remove many of the better students from public schools, leaving the lower-down-ladder (intelligence-wise, or economically. Sure are related!) to rot in a less-funded abandoned public school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
And about private school students getting vouchers, so what? Giving people tax money back that they aren't using for the public schools seems perfectly reasonable to me.
You missed the point. I was demonstrating that vouchers will primarily benefit the upper class and middle class, as they will have more opportunities to ALREADY enter private schools. Many poorer kids will obtain "vouchers" but will get denied for various reasons, many for the grade-based requirements. They will then be left at abandoned school. You see a pattern? This is social darwinism, as you abandon failures, instead of helping them succeed. Stossel calls this "competition." I don't really want kids who can't compete to not be given a fair shot at being educated.

Public schooling helps to ensure equality of opportunity, a major tenet of American ideals. It ain't perfect, but it helps. This will hurt the underpriveldeged. This is obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
"There might be discrimination, so we shouldn't even try."
Sigh...why should be give federal money to organizations that discriminate, anyway? Imagine this school district, with ONE public school and ONE private school (which does better here). Vouchers enter. Many kids go from the public school to the private school. Public school CONTINUES to fail, and the kids not allowed in are left to fail. Even if another private school enters, we'd still have kids with learning disabilities not allowed to enter, and being left at an abandoned school.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Acknowledge that one is better than the other.
Done. And yet still vouchers are bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Remember, vouchers are a state/local government program and they aren't even being considered at the federal level.
Like the fed isn't involved in state education. State money is controlled to a large part by Federal money. But that matters little- read on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Government control will not increase beyond what it already is. School choice would lessen the government stranglehold over education because government wouldn't be able to assume that families will send their kids to a public school. The lack of competition is what has lead to degeneration.
Government control would exist where it hadn't befrore, namely PRIVATE SCHOOLS. Some of the biggest opponents of vouchers are private school administrators, as they don't gov't meddling. Whenever gov't money enters, control follows, whether it's federal or local. They want to uphold their policies of accepting students, and gov't would use voucher money as leverage. It's done ALL THE TIME. It's naive to think otherwise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
They aren't "our tax dollars". We're talking about state and local tax dollars. Money that is circulated through their respective communities.
I pay local taxes and state taxes. These are my tax dollars. Why do I want to support religious institutions? There's a DC voucher idea floating around and here's a worry: "Voucher schools lack accountability to the taxpayers that subsidize them; they would in both congressional plans for D.C. have no substantive requirement for reporting or improving academic achievement by students." Tell my why we should allow public money to support a school that has the power to deny service to students, based on any number of things.

Also, say the Vouchers are 5,000 dollars. What's going to stop Private schools from raising tuition 5,000 dollars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
I want more vouchers. Let failing public schools fail so that they can finally be restructured into something better. Let the good public schools continue to thrive. And let people get out of shitty school systems and send their kids to a good private school if they want to.
Letting them fail? What would come of the kids left inside them? Are they just failures, and so should be left behind? Answer this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Vouchers, themselves, aren't the problem. None of your arguments are a direct attack against vouchers. You couch behind a notion that there might be discrimination, which a bogus red herring.
There would be discrimination, as private schools alread deny people for learning disabilities and grades. But grades are the student's fault! Let's say it is. So should we let a seven yearold D student waste away at an abandoned failing school? No.

Here's info about the recent Cleveland Voucher program: "Voucher programs though implemented purportedly to benefit poor children, are vulnerable to expansion as a subsidy for other populations. Reports about the Cleveland program indicate that the move there is to make the program serve better off families."

Class warefare! YAY!

This is a move by the upper class to help the upper class. It's like the Georgia Hope Scholarship, which uses lottery profits to allow good-grade students to attend state schools for free. It benefits me, an upper-middle class white guy, greatly. In fact, it feeds off more the poor's money, and generally helps the people who already could afford it. It's actually been shown to NOT help the "failing." But, hey, it saves me money. :-D

Vouchers do not help failing schools, and do not help failing kids who fail because of failing schools (or a plethora of other reasons- learning disabilities, poor economic status, etc.). They are not the solution.

--------------------

To HV:
"But one thing puzzles me about these oft-made comparisons. I talked to Tharman Shanmugaratnam to understand it better. He's the minister of Education of Singapore, the country that is No. 1 in the global science and math rankings for schoolchildren. I asked the minister how to explain the fact that even though Singapore's students do so brilliantly on these tests, when you look at these same students 10 or 20 years later, few of them are worldbeaters anymore.

"Singapore has few truly top-ranked scientists, entrepreneurs, inventors, business executives or academics. American kids, by contrast, test much worse in the fourth and eighth grades but seem to do better later in life and in the real world. Why? "We both have meritocracies," Shanmugaratnam said. "Yours is a talent meri tocracy, ours is an exam meritocracy. There are some parts of the intellect that we are not able to test well—like creativity, curiosity, a sense of adventure, ambition. Most of all, America has a culture of learning that challenges conventional wisdom, even if it means challenging authority. These are the areas where Singapore must learn from America." - Fareed Zakaria.

There is no doubt that the U.S. has public school problems. I was just pointing out that it's not all bad. Our school systems generally have the results of creating huge peaks and deep valleys. Many grow to be successful- others not so much.

Vouchers may increase the peaks, but it will CERTAINLY deepen the valleys. Don't we want to avoid that? Vouchers only increase class divide and hurt the poor. Call it fearmongering, Windowless, but it is what it is. And the Cleveland program results support me
 

Last edited by areese87; 11-23-2008 at 12:27 AM.
areese87 has 1,702 Posts

Obama has won. The seas of change are flooding the streets- a deluge of possibility, a monsoon of opportunity, a literal tsunami of inspiration. We're talking hope. And the only thing left to do is to put on some swimming trunks, maybe a pair of goggles, and just riiiide the wave...

And a major pox on that bastard Jeph Loeb. Everything you touch dies.
 

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