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Old 01-18-2009
 
#31
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Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
No, actually, I didn't. As Izzy pointed out, you are putting words in my mouth.
Nobody is putting words in your mouth, you said you want to make the government "more efficient." By "more efficient" you simply mean that you want to make it easier for them to tax and spend our money, because you have defined "inefficient" as my system, which does the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ga
I think I see the problem, now. Whereas I think the goal of a government is well-placed, efficient spending of money, your goal is apparently just to make the government as inefficient as possible so as to make it barely functional. Reasons for opposing your half-witted scheme are fairly salient.
By "efficient" you simply mean "easier to tax and spend our money." If by "inefficient" you mean "much harder to tax and spend our money" then yes I agree with that, the world could use more inefficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ga
If America has been failing for the past 50 years, I think the whole world could stand some fail. While you're referencing books, I suggest you move out of the "Theory" section of economics and move into the "history" section of America. I don't particularly see any clauses that lead to a world superpower via failsystem written by Marx or any other of these egomaniacal wackjobs you're pointing at as infalliable prophets.
Pillar number 5 of Marx, the taking over of credit and central banking by the government. You still don't consider this to be socialism though (what is, then?).

And I didn't realize we've been having these 5 trillion dollar bailouts for the last 50 years, got some evidence for that assertion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ga
I'd be more convinced you knew what you're talking about if you weren't ostensibly attempting to copy Kaizen.
I've been promoting pure capitalism much longer than Kaizen has on these forums.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
#32
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When he says efficient he means "

–adjective
1. performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable: a reliable, efficient secretary.
2. satisfactory and economical to use: Our new air conditioner is more efficient than our old one.
3. producing an effect, as a cause; causative.
4. utilizing a particular commodity or product with maximum efficiency (usually used in combination): a fuel-efficient engine. " ( http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=efficient )

Y'know, the definition of efficient.

Which means hes FOR cutting spending and FOR making the government run smoother.

Where as you are FOR cutting spending and AGAINST making the government run smoother.


You do not need to make it harder to stop it from happening. If you put the cookies on top of the fridge, your kid is still going to get to them.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
#33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
When he says efficient he means "

–adjective
1. performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable: a reliable, efficient secretary.
2. satisfactory and economical to use: Our new air conditioner is more efficient than our old one.
3. producing an effect, as a cause; causative.
4. utilizing a particular commodity or product with maximum efficiency (usually used in combination): a fuel-efficient engine. " ( http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=efficient )

Y'know, the definition of efficient.

Which means hes FOR cutting spending and FOR making the government run smoother.

Where as you are FOR cutting spending and AGAINST making the government run smoother.
By "smoother" you simply mean the opposite of what you stated earlier ("FOR" cutting spending). "Smoother" in this case simply means "easier to tax and spend money." We don't need it to be smoother, in fact we need it to be as rough and jagged as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
You do not need to make it harder to stop it from happening. If you put the cookies on top of the fridge, your kid is still going to get to them.
But if I create a vault that is only accessible via my eyescan I don't think it's likely they will get those cookies if I don't want them to. If they absolutely need them then I can always open the vault.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
#34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
By "smoother" you simply mean the opposite of what you stated earlier ("FOR" cutting spending). "Smoother" in this case simply means "easier to tax and spend money." We don't need it to be smoother, in fact we need it to be as rough and jagged as possible.
Regardless of whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, it is possible to have the government run smoother and with less spending.

Quote:
But if I create a vault that is only accessible via my eyescan I don't think it's likely they will get those cookies if I don't want them to. If they absolutely need them then I can always open the vault.
Why would you create a vault for cookies?

I thought you were smart, but you are actually pretty stupid. To expand on that, the point behind it was, whatever you do, there will be loopholes found.

Also, lastly, the people who benefit most from the current system are the ones who would have to vote it in. So realistically speaking whatever you say couldn't ever happen.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
#35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy

Regardless of whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, it is possible to have the government run smoother and with less spending.
Possible but highly improbable. Therefore the superior solution is to make it harder to tax and spend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Why would you create a vault for cookies?
To protect them from unwanted cookie monsters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
I thought you were smart, but you are actually pretty stupid. To expand on that, the point behind it was, whatever you do, there will be loopholes found.
First of all I'm much smarter than you. Secondly thank you captain obvious, I never claimed my system was perfect, just superior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Also, lastly, the people who benefit most from the current system are the ones who would have to vote it in. So realistically speaking whatever you say couldn't ever happen.
I know, my position presupposed a rational and intelligent population, but if we had that, we wouldn't need my system.
 
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Old 01-19-2009
 
#36
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
First of all I'm much smarter than you. Secondly thank you captain obvious, I never claimed my system was perfect, just superior.
I'm sorry you feel that you are smarter. You aren't ever going to get smarter if you assume you have nothing to learn from any one else. You have no real reason to assume that, other than a disagreement. If you were truly smarter, you would not have acted immaturely in this thread and insulted everyone who has disagreed with you. Because being immature does not breed discussion.

Your system is superior in one aspect. That aspect is controlling spending. In every other aspect it is inferior. What other aspect is it superior in? Please, tell me.

In emergencies? Nope, it is inferior.
Making the government run smoother? Nope, it is inferior.
Helping important projects, such as teachers and roads? Nope, it is inferior.

In fact, while it would at first lower taxes, over the long run, when people realize that they need to start having reserve money for their projects, the taxes would actually go higher than they already are.

So please, tell me.



Also... Captain Obvious? WTF? What are you, like 2?
 

Last edited by izzy; 01-19-2009 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 01-19-2009
 
#37
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
Here is an idea I think would be superior to the current one.

Any time the government wants to pay for something it should raise a tax for it. The tax should be clearly defined and only go towards the specific government program it's meant for -- no broad general categories.
So what kind of taxes would you be raising for projects? Because even basic economic principles says buy low sell high. When people start having their taxes raised, they will begin to counter act. A few various examples would be if you raised taxes on bread, people would buy less bread when the tax is raised. Now assuming you don't specifically tax the life basics, and go to more specifics, you will still have government policy affecting economics by raising taxes on certain products, and influencing that business sector.

I'll wait for your response before saying what I want to.
 

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Old 01-19-2009
 
#38
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Originally Posted by izzy View Post
I'm sorry you feel that you are smarter. You aren't ever going to get smarter if you assume you have nothing to learn from any one else. You have no real reason to assume that, other than a disagreement. If you were truly smarter, you would not have acted immaturely in this thread and insulted everyone who has disagreed with you. Because being immature does not breed discussion.
You are the one who started with the immature name-calling, don't try to blame this on me because you can't handle it. You should have never started in the first place, and now your'e trying to pretend like I'm the one who started it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Your system is superior in one aspect. That aspect is controlling spending. In every other aspect it is inferior. What other aspect is it superior in? Please, tell me.

In emergencies? Nope, it is inferior.
Making the government run smoother? Nope, it is inferior.
Helping important projects, such as teachers and roads? Nope, it is inferior.
My system covers all of the above. If these "important projects" are so important then a tax can be raised for them. In the event of an emergency an emergency session can be called to vote on funds. A government that governs less governs smoother and better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
In fact, while it would at first lower taxes, over the long run, when people realize that they need to start having reserve money for their projects, the taxes would actually go higher than they already are.
No, they wouldn't.
 
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Old 01-19-2009
 
#39
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
You are the one who started with the immature name-calling, don't try to blame this on me because you can't handle it. You should have never started in the first place, and now your'e trying to pretend like I'm the one who started it.
Post 13 was the first time you insulted me. Then you insulted me a second time in Post 16 or 17. I called your viewpoint narrow minded in between those. I still stand by the fact that you are being narrow minded. Before post 13, I had said nothing that could have even be twisted around to be insulting. So yeah, you did start it.

In case you forgot,

Quote:
You are a victim of fearmongering propaganda, you are an idiot, and unable to think for yourself. You do not deserve freedom, and I don't think you should even be allowed to spread your retarded opinions on an online forum.

You've already demonstrated a complete inability to think for yourself, so I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't be posting your opinion (that was given to you) to an online forum.
Yeaaaah... Fuck you too.
Quote:
My system covers all of the above. If these "important projects" are so important then a tax can be raised for them. In the event of an emergency an emergency session can be called to vote on funds. A government that governs less governs smoother and better.
You said yours was superior. It is not superior in those aspects. The current system, surprisingly, is superior in those aspects.

Wait, wait, wait.
Quote:
A government that governs less governs smoother and better.
Your system Governs the government. It adds MUCH MORE GOVERNING! Therefore, using your own statement, it is not smoother, nor is it better. You're not taking a hands off approach. You're simply babying everything that gets done. You're not making it smoother, you're making it rough and abrasive.


Quote:
No, they wouldn't.
Proof? Oh wait, you have none. Nor do you have reasons to even assume this.

At this point we're both just using the same arguments, so I say we both just drop it. But you will want the last word in. In that post you will call me stupid. I'll take it personally, post again, then you'll post again. This is going nowhere, and we aren't having any real discussion.
 

Last edited by izzy; 01-19-2009 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 01-19-2009
 
#40
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
But if I create a vault that is only accessible via my eyescan I don't think it's likely they will get those cookies if I don't want them to. If they absolutely need them then I can always open the vault.
This isn't a fancy new tax system, it's a despotism.
 
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Old 01-19-2009
 
#41
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Originally Posted by izzy View Post
Your system Governs the government. It adds MUCH MORE GOVERNING! Therefore, using your own statement, it is not smoother, nor is it better. You're not taking a hands off approach. You're simply babying everything that gets done. You're not making it smoother, you're making it rough and abrasive.
Well in that case more government is good so long as the government is the one being governed. Now we're just playing word games. The end result of my system is less government, and yours is the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Proof? Oh wait, you have none. Nor do you have reasons to even assume this.
Burden of proof is on you pal, you made the original claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
You said yours was superior. It is not superior in those aspects. The current system, surprisingly, is superior in those aspects.
The current system is superior at taxing and spending money, that is it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ga
This isn't a fancy new tax system, it's a despotism.
No, it's not.
 
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#42
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A despotism run by a genius, benevolent despot would be one of the most efficient and powerful governments in the world.

However, that doesn't change that it's a despotism. You can deny it all you'd like.

If you effectively control the government's ability to exercise power, you in effect control the government. QED.
 
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#43
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

Note the cute play on words here. In one case he uses the word "control" as in an actual person controlling the government, when in fact we are talking about a system of control, which controls the government. We could apply this to other cases as well. For example the seperation of powers concept is a system of control, to prevent one branch from gaining too much power. Is this despotism? Well according to his statement (which makes humorous use of equivocation in order to work, I admit that was very witty) yes this is depostism.

"If you effectively control the government's ability to exercise power, you in effect control the government. QED."

In the first case "control" means simply preventing the government from accumulating too much power, whereas in the second case he uses it to mean an actual person in physical control. However, when taken as a single argument he uses the words as one. This is known as "equivocation."
 
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#44
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How is allowing the inefficient banks to fail going to affect deposits which are guranteed by the FDIC? Allowing the inefficient banks to fail does not affect the FDIC gurantee, so you are just pulling that out of your ass and trying to repeat your perception of what you think the logic of the bailout is.
Quote:
I disagree with your assertion that we should make it easier for the government to be "more efficient" at spending our tax dollars. Just reduced. I don't care if they've come up with a more clever way to spend a trillion dollars, I'd rather they simply not spend it.
Quote:
By "smoother" you simply mean the opposite of what you stated earlier ("FOR" cutting spending). "Smoother" in this case simply means "easier to tax and spend money." We don't need it to be smoother, in fact we need it to be as rough and jagged as possible.
Quote:
By "efficient" you simply mean "easier to tax and spend our money." If by "inefficient" you mean "much harder to tax and spend our money" then yes I agree with that, the world could use more inefficiency.
Note how "inefficient" means "inefficient" until DE gets a hold of the word, then it suddenly means "efficiency of government spending". Note how DE is supposedly an expert on Equivocation.

After being pressed on inefficiency and his insistance of beauracracy in every conceiveable level of government, via:
Quote:
If emergency funds had to be raised we would make a new tax for that, like "emergency fund to fire police chief and hire new one because old one went over budget like an idiot."
Quote:
Everything needs a waiting period. The government does not need quick money.
Quote:
holding back FEMA would be among the greater services we could provide to humanity. In fact abolishing them completely would be the optimal scenario.
The zinger:

Quote:
But if I create a vault that is only accessible via my eyescan I don't think it's likely they will get those cookies if I don't want them to. If they absolutely need them then I can always open the vault.
Figure out how he comes up with a system to retard government spending but then makes an analogy stating that his system would have mechanisms in place to circumvent his system "if he decided that we needed it". I remark that this description is that of a despotism, he says I'm equivocating. Who holds the keys to the vault? Who decides what "need" means?

DE is quite the garbage man, but not quite in the way he thinks of himself.


 

Last edited by GenocideAlive; 01-20-2009 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 01-20-2009
 
#45
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Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
Note how "inefficient" means "inefficient" until DE gets a hold of the word, then it suddenly means "efficiency of government spending". Note how DE is supposedly an expert on Equivocation.
Actually you made the original assertion by saying my system would be inefficient. I take issue with your characterization which is completely unfounded. How could more government be more efficient than less government? You're the one mixing words here. My system is more efficient by definition, since there is inherently less government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ga
After being pressed on inefficiency and his insistance of beauracracy in every conceiveable level of government, via:
How could less government = more beauracracy? By definition this makes no sense whatsoever. My system is more efficient by definition since there would be less government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ga
Figure out how he comes up with a system to retard government spending but then makes an analogy stating that his system would have mechanisms in place to circumvent his system "if he decided that we needed it". I remark that this description is that of a despotism, he says I'm equivocating. Who holds the keys to the vault? Who decides what "need" means?
You're taking one analogy and applying it where it doesn't fit. He's talking about cookies, I'm sorry that you weren't able to understand that but it's not really my fault. The point was that we are making it harder for government to tax and spend money, this should have been an easy concept to understand for anyone with half a brain -- you were not such a person. Obviously I personally wouldn't be the one allowing the government access in this case, it would be the people and their elected representatives.

Why? Because I don't make laws, remember? If I don't make laws then how could I be the one giving people access? Your inability to comprehend simple analogies leads us to believe that you are not intelligent to understand what we are talking about here.
 
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