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Old 12-30-2008
 
#1
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Default New tax system proposal

Here is an idea I think would be superior to the current one.

Any time the government wants to pay for something it should raise a tax for it. The tax should be clearly defined and only go towards the specific government program it's meant for -- no broad general categories.

For example if we want to go to war there is an Iraq war tax, Afghanistan war tax, national defense tax, communications/intelligence tax. etc. If we want to build the interstates there should be an interstate tax, bridge tax, etc. If a local government wishes to build a new courthouse it should make a courthouse tax. Same thing with a school, don't just increase the property tax, make it very specific (new school tax).

The federal government has completely circumvented this system with their broad general categories and refusal to label their taxes. This system is what caused the American Revolution, as the number of different taxes became very annoying to the colonists.

Also, nothing can be payed for without a tax for it (this will prevent the scam artists in the Fed from printing fake money, or the scumbags in congress from "buying" it with debt).

What do you think?
 
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Old 12-30-2008
 
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Well, at first glance the biggest error I see is that while current debt is unacceptable, taking on debt can be advisable under extreme conditions. While obviously we are in no such situation, if a foreign nation were to invade and posed serious threat of, say sacking DC, it would be appropriate in my mind for the government to take debt. And your proposal doesn't seem to have a mechanism to allow for such debt.

I do like the principles behind it though. Without too much serious thought, I'd say it seems like a good idea.
 
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Old 12-30-2008
 
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Why not go into full time war economy in that case? Why would we continue on a business as usual setting in that scenario?
 
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Old 12-30-2008
 
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Living in a country that supposedly employs this system already ('road user charges' are taxes specific to vehicles which 'should' go to maintaining and expanding the road network, unfortunately they don't), I'd have to say that it is quite flawed, in that it relies on the goodwill of the government (see the big problem?) to work.
 
 

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Old 01-02-2009
 
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Without a very supporting infrastructure you would loose fluidity of assets. It would be imposable to send FEMA out after enough missions, police might just stop doing their jobs if they're not getting paid because they went over-budget, lots of things could really go wrong here. Any supporting infrastructure would require that all decision makers (all 300+million Americans, or whatever the population of voters are) not only want to participate, not only understand what they're vote actually means, but they actually do vote. Of course we could just say "oh well we can have one person represent a group of people and they can vote on their behalf, but then you have exactly what we already have :P.

A better answer to this would be forcing each department to be 100% accountable and justifiable for every dollar spent. As it stands, a vast majority of organizations run their spending regulations like this:

-> What did you spend last year?
-> Did you spend more than that much this year?
YES> Then you get more money
NO > Then you get less money

What's the flaw with that? =/
These groups just run out and blow money on pork, bork, bork.
 
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Old 01-02-2009
 
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There should be no income tax. All tax should come from buying goods and services.
 
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Old 01-02-2009
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakain Zeil View Post
Without a very supporting infrastructure you would loose fluidity of assets. It would be imposable to send FEMA out after enough missions, police might just stop doing their jobs if they're not getting paid because they went over-budget, lots of things could really go wrong here. Any supporting infrastructure would require that all decision makers (all 300+million Americans, or whatever the population of voters are) not only want to participate, not only understand what they're vote actually means, but they actually do vote. Of course we could just say "oh well we can have one person represent a group of people and they can vote on their behalf, but then you have exactly what we already have :P.
Thats a great idea, holding back FEMA would be among the greater services we could provide to humanity. In fact abolishing them completely would be the optimal scenario. Police shouldn't go over budget because they would not have either the authority or the capacity to do so. All government agencies should plan for problems and keep money on reserve. No going over budget, period. If emergency funds had to be raised we would make a new tax for that, like "emergency fund to fire police chief and hire new one because old one went over budget like an idiot."

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom
A better answer to this would be forcing each department to be 100% accountable and justifiable for every dollar spent. As it stands, a vast majority of organizations run their spending regulations like this:

-> What did you spend last year?
-> Did you spend more than that much this year?
YES> Then you get more money
NO > Then you get less money

What's the flaw with that? =/
These groups just run out and blow money on pork, bork, bork.
Yeah, and make them criminally liable for such actions.
 
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Old 01-02-2009
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakain Zeil View Post
As it stands, a vast majority of organizations run their spending regulations like this:

-> What did you spend last year?
-> Did you spend more than that much this year?
YES> Then you get more money
NO > Then you get less money
They even do this same shit in Japan. The city will dig up and replace pipes that were installed the year earlier and are perfectly fine just to increase spending so their funds don't get reduced.
 

Last edited by Golgo 13; 01-03-2009 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 01-03-2009
 
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
Thats a great idea, holding back FEMA would be among the greater services we could provide to humanity. In fact abolishing them completely would be the optimal scenario. Police shouldn't go over budget because they would not have either the authority or the capacity to do so. All government agencies should plan for problems and keep money on reserve. No going over budget, period. If emergency funds had to be raised we would make a new tax for that, like "emergency fund to fire police chief and hire new one because old one went over budget like an idiot."
Any system in a perfect world would work. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. Some groups would come in under budget, while other groups would come in over budget.

This is not including the fact that if the government needed to start a new fund for something that is needed quickly, they would have to implement the tax first and hope that the funds accrue fast enough. This wouldn't always be the case. In your original proposal, there is a waiting period, and some things can not have a waiting period.

For example, under your proposal, say many major banks created virtual loans and ended up losing all of their money. The government agencies may not have enough money in reserve due to having most of their money already allocated to other things. The banks collapse, the dollar follows, and the American Economy as we know it evaporates.

Quote:
There should be no income tax. All tax should come from buying goods and services.
The need for an income tax comes from the desire to have a lower goods/services tax. Also, only having goods/services tax helps out those who cannot afford said goods and services more than it helps out the rich, and that goes against the precedent set in American History.
 

Last edited by izzy; 01-03-2009 at 03:47 AM. Reason: more stuffs...
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Old 01-03-2009
 
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Originally Posted by izzy View Post
Any system in a perfect world would work. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. Some groups would come in under budget, while other groups would come in over budget.
It would be impossible to go over budget because you aren't allowed to spend money you don't have. Managers would be held criminally liable for going over budget, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
This is not including the fact that if the government needed to start a new fund for something that is needed quickly, they would have to implement the tax first and hope that the funds accrue fast enough. This wouldn't always be the case. In your original proposal, there is a waiting period, and some things can not have a waiting period.
Everything needs a waiting period. The government does not need quick money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
For example, under your proposal, say many major banks created virtual loans and ended up losing all of their money. The government agencies may not have enough money in reserve due to having most of their money already allocated to other things. The banks collapse, the dollar follows, and the American Economy as we know it evaporates.
The economy would recover. It's ok to let the banks collapse, they will be replaced by more efficient banks with more sound lending practices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
The need for an income tax comes from the desire to have a lower goods/services tax. Also, only having goods/services tax helps out those who cannot afford said goods and services more than it helps out the rich, and that goes against the precedent set in American History.
The precedent in American history is to have the federal governments budget increase to thousands of times it's original size. We should be actively working to prevent this precedent and change it. Reduce government down to the size that would make this system feasible -- don't bend the system to accomodate massive government spending.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
It would be impossible to go over budget because you aren't allowed to spend money you don't have. Managers would be held criminally liable for going over budget, period.
So now you have people terrified of going over budget. So much so that they aren't getting necessities for their various projects. Greeeeat.

And before you say that they'll be held criminally liable for not getting necessities, you need to remember that your entire project would require alot of oversight. Whos overseeing all this to make sure that it doesn't all explode?


Quote:
Everything needs a waiting period. The government does not need quick money.

The economy would recover. It's ok to let the banks collapse, they will be replaced by more efficient banks with more sound lending practices.
All the people with money in said banks would lose everything. And people will start seeing banks as a risky venture. Your plan would not have lasted through this past economic crisis. It would have destroyed banks, not made room for efficient banks.

It takes time for these things to happen. Your formula includes very little, and one of the major important factors it excludes is time.

Quote:
The precedent in American history is to have the federal governments budget increase to thousands of times it's original size. We should be actively working to prevent this precedent and change it. Reduce government down to the size that would make this system feasible -- don't bend the system to accomodate massive government spending.
It would be even more expensive to rebuild the government then you are possibly thinking.

Time is money. Time doesn't stand still. These cliches exist for a reason.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
#12
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Originally Posted by Golgo 13 View Post
They even do this same shit in Japan. The city will dig up and replace pipes that were installed the year earlier and are perfectly fine just to increase spending so their funds don't get reduced.
They do this where you live. They do this where I live. They do this in Washington, they do this in Ottawa, it's the western way to budget. It's insane!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
Thats a great idea, holding back FEMA would be among the greater services we could provide to humanity. In fact abolishing them completely would be the optimal scenario. Police shouldn't go over budget because they would not have either the authority or the capacity to do so. All government agencies should plan for problems and keep money on reserve. No going over budget, period. If emergency funds had to be raised we would make a new tax for that, like "emergency fund to fire police chief and hire new one because old one went over budget like an idiot."
I actually had a good laugh there because I was serious in that the effects of such would be bad, but it was irony that they are somewhat bulked down and mismanaged in public opinion. But really, you have this crazy idea presented to us that everything should just be cut out, tied off, or cauterized if they aren't 100%. Really, removal of FEMA is a stupid idea, they need to be improved, not removed. I only hope you get hit by a F5 so you can have your cake and tell FEMA you don't want their help. It's insane to think that they can imagine every passable mishap that will happen to the country. I want you to sit down a realistically budget this before you start throwing more outlandish criticisms like this. Many organizations already have disaster recovery plans. Back when I worked at the bank they had ones for things such as "terrorists explode the CN tower, the data center gets obliterated, and this is what we do..." or, biological attacks, or a million other things, but they cannot cover everything, they can however do their due diligence.
Quote:
Yeah, and make them criminally liable for such actions.
There's a fine line between standards and bureaucracy. And this? Bureaucracy. Again, this idea that "we should hang anyone who doesn't fill the bill at gallows poll" these organizations do not have unlimited resources, perfect foresight, or the best decision makers, but somehow they manage to make billions of dollars anyway, because that's their goal. Not to ensure prefect budgeting that will slow down all processes and lead them to bankruptcy because everything you do has a dollar value assigned to it, listed or not. But I'll keep away from extrema situations and try to stick to realistic ones, if you do too. So, re-evaluate your idea, and consider the FULL PERSPECTIVE impact that this madness would actually have.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
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So now you have people terrified of going over budget. So much so that they aren't getting necessities for their various projects. Greeeeat.
Yes that is great. It's these pet "projects" that got us into this mess to begin with. You can keep your bridge to nowhere, it's unnecessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
And before you say that they'll be held criminally liable for not getting necessities, you need to remember that your entire project would require alot of oversight. Whos overseeing all this to make sure that it doesn't all explode?
No, not "necessities." Necessities are covered by the budget. Anything going over the budget is bullshit and unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Article
ST. LOUIS, MO – St. Louis’ new police chief and other top officers in the department are receiving gold-filled badges worth nearly $2,000 each.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that that’s about 100 times the price of a patrolman’s badge. And it’s more than other departments spend. For example, Kansas City Police Chief James Corwin’s badge cost $48.75.

But it’s a lot less than the $5,900 each the city spent on two solid-gold badges for Chief Daniel Isom’s predecessor, Joe Mokwa.

The latest badges were a nearly $10,000 line item in a unanimous vote Wednesday by the Board of Police Commissioners to approve December purchases.

The vote came just hours before the department admitted that it had wrongly kept up to $6 million seized in the arrest of suspects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
All the people with money in said banks would lose everything. And people will start seeing banks as a risky venture. Your plan would not have lasted through this past economic crisis. It would have destroyed banks, not made room for efficient banks.

It takes time for these things to happen. Your formula includes very little, and one of the major important factors it excludes is time.
False.

You just pulled that out of your ass. Letting the banks fail would not cause people to lose their deposits. It would allow better banks to replace them, like happens in all market economies. You are a victim of fearmongering propaganda, you are an idiot, and unable to think for yourself. You do not deserve freedom, and I don't think you should even be allowed to spread your retarded opinions on an online forum.

You've already demonstrated a complete inability to think for yourself, so I think it's safe to say that you shouldn't be posting your opinion (that was given to you) to an online forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
It would be even more expensive to rebuild the government then you are possibly thinking.

Time is money. Time doesn't stand still. These cliches exist for a reason.
Circular logic. They exist because they exist. Simply because something exists does not mean it has a good reason to exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dz

I actually had a good laugh there because I was serious in that the effects of such would be bad, but it was irony that they are somewhat bulked down and mismanaged in public opinion. But really, you have this crazy idea presented to us that everything should just be cut out, tied off, or cauterized if they aren't 100%. Really, removal of FEMA is a stupid idea, they need to be improved, not removed. I only hope you get hit by a F5 so you can have your cake and tell FEMA you don't want their help. It's insane to think that they can imagine every passable mishap that will happen to the country. I want you to sit down a realistically budget this before you start throwing more outlandish criticisms like this. Many organizations already have disaster recovery plans. Back when I worked at the bank they had ones for things such as "terrorists explode the CN tower, the data center gets obliterated, and this is what we do..." or, biological attacks, or a million other things, but they cannot cover everything, they can however do their due diligence.
Then that should be in the FEMA budget. Otherwise, no. What is the problem with raising a new tax to help out disaster victims? You have not identified why this would be a problem under my system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dz
There's a fine line between standards and bureaucracy. And this? Bureaucracy. Again, this idea that "we should hang anyone who doesn't fill the bill at gallows poll" these organizations do not have unlimited resources, perfect foresight, or the best decision makers, but somehow they manage to make billions of dollars anyway, because that's their goal. Not to ensure prefect budgeting that will slow down all processes and lead them to bankruptcy because everything you do has a dollar value assigned to it, listed or not. But I'll keep away from extrema situations and try to stick to realistic ones, if you do too. So, re-evaluate your idea, and consider the FULL PERSPECTIVE impact that this madness would actually have.
The full impact would be that people would not longer go over budget, which is the goal. It's amazing how "impossible" things become quite possible when peoples lives depend on it. It can and will be done, spending within your budget is both possible and mandatory.

The only thing that might truly be impossible is congressional spending. Congress couldn't control spending if their members lives depended on it.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
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Then that should be in the FEMA budget. Otherwise, no. What is the problem with raising a new tax to help out disaster victims? You have not identified why this would be a problem under my system.
What system? Your system is "charge them as criminals!" Do you understand what a system is? Do you have any experience running any large projects or project with a price tag with more than three zeros? You just said that if a group designed to aid disaster victims cannot plan for every situation that could ever happen and budget for it, it shouldn't exist. And your reasoning, is that planning for some recovery and situations is worse than them simply not existing at all. Because it's crystal clear that no disaster recovery group is better than having one with limited budget and lacking omnipotence. Do you even read your own posts?
Quote:
0
The full impact would be that people would not longer go over budget, which is the goal. It's amazing how "impossible" things become quite possible when peoples lives depend on it. It can and will be done, spending within your budget is both possible and mandatory.
Who the fuck told you what the word full meant? You just listed one perspective, the one and only one you've been waving around in the air. You are an ignorant fool if you honestly believe there would be no other repercussions.
 
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Old 01-04-2009
 
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United States The Hawaiian
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Originally Posted by Drakain Zeil View Post
What system? Your system is "charge them as criminals!" Do you understand what a system is? Do you have any experience running any large projects or project with a price tag with more than three zeros? You just said that if a group designed to aid disaster victims cannot plan for every situation that could ever happen and budget for it, it shouldn't exist. And your reasoning, is that planning for some recovery and situations is worse than them simply not existing at all. Because it's crystal clear that no disaster recovery group is better than having one with limited budget and lacking omnipotence. Do you even read your own posts?
Straw man, if the funds are absolutely necessary then a new tax can be raised. Otherwise, they can't spend over budget. And part of their budget should be planning for the unforseen future.

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Originally Posted by dz
Who the fuck told you what the word full meant? You just listed one perspective, the one and only one you've been waving around in the air. You are an ignorant fool if you honestly believe there would be no other repercussions.
It's the main and most important one. FEMA gets more money for saving less lives, and the more they fuck up the more money they get. This is a formula for disaster, and my system is 100% superior.
 
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