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Old 12-28-2008
 
#1
United States Luther Stark
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Default An open letter to whoever wants to read it

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Old 12-28-2008
 
#2
Netherlands DaDaimon
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Jezus Christ Luther, fuck off with your hippie bullshit. It isn't original, it isn't interesting nor well written. At least you could try to do the latter to hide your intellectual incompetence.

Why do you even post these kind of things? Do you want people to hurl insults at you? Do you feel you're doing us some kind of service? This site isn't meant as your personal blog, but a place where people interact in their spare time. If I want to read up on philosophy or to learn something interesting or useful, I certainly won't go here. I'd read a book by someone who actually has the competence to write a coherent story.

I mean have you even read that yourself before you posted it? I am guessing no or that you lack any self-criticism. Signing an open letter with the world at least points to a degree of narcissism only equaled by videotaping and publishing yourself masturbating in the mirror. I am afraid that this is not far from the truth what you're doing right now sans the publishing. Get help.

On behalf of myself,

sincerely,

DD
 

Last edited by DaDaimon; 12-28-2008 at 02:04 PM. Reason: because it was neccessary!
 

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Old 12-28-2008
 
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Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
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Old 12-28-2008
 
#4
United States Alexander
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lolwut

This letter means nothing and won't help solve anyone's problems.
 
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Old 12-28-2008
 
#5
United States Chaos
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Everyone thinks they can lose something these days.
Only these days?

We must build a time machine and go back to the past to steal the secrets of our wise ancestors, who never lost anything!

Quote:
They think they can lose people: the people who raise them, the people who are kind to them, the people who love them. But they can’t lose these people because they arn't theirs to lose. We speak of others as if we own them. “Oh yeah, she’s my girlfriend” or “that guy? That guy’s my friend” and “her? She’s my mom”. But we’re wrong to call them that. Because we don’t possess people, and so we cannot lose them.
Unfortunately for your argument though human beings do build emotionally symbiotic relationships with other human beings and they do in fact possess these relationships, and lose them if they stop interacting with that person.

You are playing a stupid game of semantics.

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But people arn't just afraid of losing other people, they're afraid of losing life itself. They believe that they have life, and that they have to hold on to it for as long as they can. They don't want to lose their life, they dont want to die. The problem is, people do not possess life, people are life.
So life is a state of being rather than a possession of some independent entity, aka the soul I guess. Well I hate to say it, but there's absolutely no difference. We wish to remain in the state of being known as "life" for as long as possible, we want to keep our lives as long as possible, there's no difference. So, you're wrong.

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People, along with everything else, is life. How can people lose what they are? Its illogical. Its absurd.
People can't lose what they are, and what they are is life.

Why am I not rubbing shoulders with Caesar and Charles the Hammer and Henry V then? How could those people not be living anymore? What they are is life, after all, and you can't lose what you are.

But for some reason outside your mental horizon, they remain stubbornly dead.

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People believe in the absurd and so they suffer. That’s what causes suffering in life, havn’t they realized this? Ignorance is what causes suffering. If people knew the truth, they would not suffer.
Ignorance is what causes suffering? How interesting. Here I thought it was external or mental stimuli that are not conducive to an efficient running of the human body and mind were what caused suffering. Now I learn it's ignorance. Silly me, things like a lack of food, shelter, companionship, or injury, they don't cause suffering. Ignorance does!

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The truth is this: perfection is. Whatever happens, whatever is experienced, wherever we go, we find perfection. That truth is right in front of us. Its so close, we often miss it. We're too busying looking for something else to notice that its staring us right in the face.
This is sheer nonsense and dead-set against human nature. It is a waste of the wonderful ability to reason we have been given, whether it be by God, nature, what-have-you. The human mind cannot do anything but strive to increase comfort and pleasure and decrease discomfort and pain.

Even you Buddhists do this. The Eightfold Path is nothing more than a method used by Buddhists for those purposes. I suspect if we ran your ramblings by a real Buddhist monk, he would be appalled at the arrogance and shallowness of them.

Quote:
So we don't have to be afraid anymore. There isn't all that much to argue or disagree about. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to insult one another. We don't have to feel angry or alone. We stopped looking and we found perfection. Thats enough for us.
You are beyond the hope of turning into an intelligent human being.
 
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Old 12-28-2008
 
#6
United States Reflection
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From what I put together through Chaos' quotes... Wow, just wow.
 
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I have come curiously close to the end, though
Beneath my self indulgent pitiful hole. Defeated I
Concede and move closer. I may find comfort here
I may find peace within the emptiness. How pitiful.
It's calling me...
 

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Old 12-28-2008
 
#7
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Dude, I can't believe we bullied Luther into taking away his initial post. If I wanted to sound like an ass I would say to him, 'why try to take back the past by deleting your OP - just accept the bullying as "life is beautiful" perfection.'

but really i dont like it when people are driven away from voicing their ideas and having friendly discussion, and i wish he would come back. if this is what you believe, you should stand up for it, not shy away at the first sign of opposition.
 
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Old 12-28-2008
 
#8
Netherlands DaDaimon
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Well to be fair, it wasn't exactly 'friendly' discussion what I or Chaos did there. Though what Chaos did actually resembled some form of discourse, mine was just plain nasty.

That doesn't mean I didn't ment every word of it. Luther does need to understand that what he says isn't interesting. Not that anything I say is even remotely interesting, but the difference between me and Luther is that I don't pretend it is.

I for one know I still have a shitload to learn on many levels to become the person I want to be. However I do want to say this: Luther if you're reading this, I wouldn't say these things if I didn't care, if I didn't care you'd be on my ignore list.
 
 

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Old 12-28-2008
 
#9
United States Chaos
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Dude, I can't believe we bullied Luther into taking away his initial post. If I wanted to sound like an ass I would say to him, 'why try to take back the past by deleting your OP - just accept the bullying as "life is beautiful" perfection.'
I didn't try to bully anyone, sorry for Luther but we are in fact individuals with free minds and the essence of human progress is a competition of ideas. Luther doesn't post for a competition of ideas, he posts some feel-good ramblings about how he's figured out Life that he doesn't want challenged. I'd say he's trying to proselytize but missionaries usually have some balls.

Quote:
but really i dont like it when people are driven away from voicing their ideas and having friendly discussion, and i wish he would come back. if this is what you believe, you should stand up for it, not shy away at the first sign of opposition.
Luther doesn't want discussion he wants a drum circle and everyone singing kumbayah and being happy because everything is meaningless or whatever. I'll take a life with meaning and purpose and leave the question of transcending existence as we know it for when I'm under the ground.
 
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WELL THEY CALL ME MIKE D THE EVER LOVING MAN
IM LIKE SPOONIE GEE WELL IM THE METROPOLITICIAN
YOU SCREAM AND YOU HOLLER
BOUT MY CHEVY IMPALA
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Old 12-28-2008
 
#10
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lol, well fuck me for getting in the way of the effort to shut down everyone who doesn't conform to the type of discussion you expect, chaos. i didn;t see anything in luther's post that would lead someone to believe he wasn't offering his ideas up for critical thought, and they certainly weren't any more arrogant than anything else on this forum. g-damn i sound like neo

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Originally Posted by DaDaimon View Post
Well to be fair, it wasn't exactly 'friendly' discussion what I or Chaos did there. Though what Chaos did actually resembled some form of discourse, mine was just plain nasty.
That was the point, I didn't say any of it was friendly. I said friendly discourse was being spurned.
 

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Old 12-28-2008
 
#11
United States Luther Stark
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I deleted the post because I was wrong to have made the post in the first place. One of the things I believe is that I shouldn't state my own views or beliefs unless my intent is for others to benefit from hearing them. I went against that belief because I made the post in the hope that others would agree with me and thus legitimize my own position and therefore benefit myself. It was a hypocritical and paradoxical thing to do.

That said, I'll see if I can respond to some counter-points. Not in the hopes of proving myself right, but in the hopes of making my own view clearer for anybody who is interested. If you arn't, no need to read further.

Quote:
The human mind cannot do anything but strive to increase comfort and pleasure and decrease discomfort and pain.
But what does the human mind do when it is faced with a situation in which it is in pain but can do nothing to stop it? If it continues to strive to decrease the pain, it will only cause more suffering, because it is spending more energy without any gain.

Based on my experience I would say that in these situations the human mind has a choice. It can continue to futilelystrive to decrease the pain but it is also capable of not striving to decrease pain. So it has a choice.

I realize that none of this is original, but the part that I think most people disagree with is that choosing to stop striving against the pain when the pain is present can be as relieving as never even having the pain in the first place. I know this doesn't make much sense, but its just been my own personal experience.
 

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Old 12-28-2008
 
#12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther Stark View Post
I deleted the post because I was wrong to have made the post in the first place. One of the things I believe is that I shouldn't state my own views or beliefs unless my intent is for others to benefit from hearing them. I went against that belief because I made the post in the hope that others would agree with me and thus legitimize my own position and therefore benefit myself. It was a hypocritical and paradoxical thing to do.

That said, I'll see if I can respond to some counter-points. Not in the hopes of proving myself right, but in the hopes of making my own view clearer for anybody who is interested. If you arn't, no need to read further.



But what does the human mind do when it is faced with a situation in which it is in pain but can do nothing to stop it? If it continues to strive to decrease the pain, it will only cause more suffering, because it is spending more energy without any gain.

Based on my experience I would say that in these situations the human mind has a choice. It can continue to futilelystrive to decrease the pain but it is also capable of not striving to decrease pain. So it has a choice.

I realize that none of this is original, but the part that I think most people disagree with is that choosing to stop striving against the pain when the pain is present can be as relieving as never even having the pain in the first place. I know this doesn't make much sense, but its just been my own personal experience.
This philosophy sounds like giving up. Pure and simple. Dont strive against the pain? You might as well commit suicide.
 
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I have come curiously close to the end, though
Beneath my self indulgent pitiful hole. Defeated I
Concede and move closer. I may find comfort here
I may find peace within the emptiness. How pitiful.
It's calling me...
 

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Old 12-28-2008
 
#13
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The concept of repression is not a choice. It is the natural human function of dealing with undesirable knowledge.

I completely disagree that you can somehow "accept" the pain and engulf yourself in suffering and that somehow is beneficial. I can't even being to try and understand how this is even possible.

I know its possible to alter your perception in regards to your knowledge and the agreements you make with yourself given that knowledge, but I've never been one to get behind this "Power of Now" style of dealing with your life where you simply pretend you can just choose to stop suffering. Eckart Tolle describes in the Power of Now when his ego exhausted itself after being overwhelmed by endless suffering. I think that sort of thing is possible, but that was mechanics, not choice.
 
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"Liberty, or Freedome, signifieth (properly) the absence of opposition; (by Opposition, I mean externall Impediments of motion) and may be applied no lesse to Irrationall, and Inanimate creatures, that to Rationall.

And according to this proper, and generally received meaning of the word, a free man, is he, that in those things, which by his strength and wit he is able to do, is not hindered to doe what he has a will to."

- Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan.

So close... Yet so far.
 

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Old 12-28-2008
 
#14
United States Luther Stark
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I completely disagree that you can somehow "accept" the pain and engulf yourself in suffering and that somehow is beneficial.
I don't know if "beneficial" is the right term, but it may at times be a better alternative than not accepting the pain? Sometimes I'm faced with painful situations, despite my greatest efforts. Sometimes I get hit in the face for reasons beyond my control. But I have a choice about how to react to that sensation. What will getting upset accomplish, I ask myself. When I realize that sometimes it accomplishes nothing... I can choose to not get upset. And when I do that, the pain doesn't seem like anything particularly "wrong". Its just another sensation, in my view.
 
 

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Old 12-28-2008
 
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if you ever read "7 habits of highly effective people" it talks about this, certainly there are all kinds of literature talking about the same things as well (using various terms but all with basically the same meaning) - that is, the duality of attitude and values. of personality and fundamentals.

luther is talking about one part of it - shifting your worldview so that things look right to you. being a people person. relating well with the earth and its contents. being persuasive to others and yourself. having a positive attitude. but there is a second part, which takes priority over the first part, and that is living a life of virtue. ben talks a lot about this. core values like honesty, integrity, sincerity, etc

a two-tier system: tier one is the fundament. tier two is the execution of that

to expand on this briefly, sure luther if you say "well thats the way it is, im just going to accept it," you can find contentment there. but for the world to truly be good, you not only have to have the right attitude, but also the right values shaping the world that you later must come to accept.
 

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