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Old 12-19-2008
 
#1
Canada Drakain Zeil
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Default Davos: Politics

if you goto Youtube.com/davos you can see more info on the davos debates.

Essentially the world economic forum are gathering and asking youtube users to submit their videos, and none of them have really hit me as "wow that was tought provoking" or "yeah, you gave that a lot of thought, now go back to your bong, hippy."

Anyway, the political question is

Will the Obama administration improve the state of the world in 2009?

So, go ahead and post some responses. I'm making a thread for their other questions. I feel these would be a good set of debates for SD.
 
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Old 12-19-2008
 
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I would have to say "probably" because anything at this point is better than Bush. Let's face it, nobody respects Bush, not even Americans. He is probably THE most hated man in the Middle East, moreso than any terrorists (even terrorists who might have killed some of these peoples family members).

I feel like Obama could dialogue better with other countries, and I'm hoping he will improve Ruso-American relations which went sour for absolutely positively no good reason in the first place.
 
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Old 12-20-2008
 
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Except that it was the fault of the Russians more than the Americans.
 
 

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Old 12-20-2008
 
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How so? After the collapse of the Soviet Union we had every oppurtunity in the world to welcome Russia into the fold, but instead we decided to alienate them at every single oppurtunity we could get. First we started arming her neighbors, and sending billions to help out her neighbors which we saw as potential "allies" but of course would not help out Russia with their unbelieveably hard economic times.

Russia could have been a good ally of the United States today if we had more competant people in Washington. Instead they are busy playing on their grand chessboard (the world). Fucking idiots in Washington planning excercises with GEORGIA, I mean seriously who gives a fuck about Georgia? Why are we sending 4 billion dollars to them again? Are we really prepared to go to war with Russia over fucking GEORGIA?

This is the problem with people like that, they have this sick and twisted mentality. I could understand maybe if you were from Georgia or something, but willing to provoke WW3 over an irrelevent 3rd world country? Go fuck yourself "foreign policy experts."
 

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Old 12-21-2008
 
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So you won't accept that Vladimir Putin, a former KGB political, has has as much to do with the souring of relations as has Bush?
 
 

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Old 12-21-2008
 
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No. Let me make it clear that I believe Putin is a terrorists and the FSB a terrorist organization.

That being said, no. After the fall of the Soviet Union we had every oppurtunity in the world to embrace Russia as a new friend, ally, and trading partner. We didn't do that, instead we alienated them every chance we got and basically sold off their entire country. We did not show them even 1% of the decency and courtesy we showed Germany after the war. No Marshall Plan or anything like that for Russia.

Instead we took this oppurtunity to capitalize and humiliate Russia, so much so that they will never again trust the United States for the forseeable future (we're talking centuries here). When it comes to life, Russia realizes they are on their own and can't look to Europe or the United States for help. They only help their own "kind."

I think there is some inherent racism involved, perhaps Russia not being "western" enough for us, or too "foreign." All I know is that instead of a great ally we now have this "great enemy" and it has everything to do with our hostile actions.

The greatest conflict creating problem with us today is our complete inability to see things how others see it. Our inability to see from another perspective, from the other side. Our complete inability to imagine how we would feel if the same thing were happening to us. For example if a foreign country invaded the United States, a show of hands who here wouldn't be a terrorist/insurgent? Or let's say Russia was starting a defense pact like NATO and started recruiting our neighbors like Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, Canada, etc. Would you not feel threatened/provoked? What if they started putting up "defensive" missile shields? Of course you would feel offended.

But you don't see anything wrong with it at all when we do it. Until we can change this incredibly narcissistic and quite frankly idiotic and childlike mentality that we have, we will continue to involve ourselves in pointless conflicts that we don't understand (WHY DO THEY HATE US SO MUCH?!?!).
 
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Old 12-21-2008
 
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Are you really claiming that NATO was not created in response to Russian hegemony in eastern Europe? And that it's fellow countries should have tried to make nice nice with Stalin?

Why couldn't the Russians see things from our side? Basically, why couldn't they see that we weren't going to capitulate and hand over western Europe to their authoritarian, communist regime after fighting two world wars in that theater?
 
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Old 12-21-2008
 
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DE looks at it from the perspective of the Russians, who for decades didn't believe that eastern european countries had rights and should be satalite-states of soviet Russia. (It pretty much shows the way he talks about the nations of eastern europe in his post, not as actors, but as territory)

He therefore is inable to understand that the nations of eastern european will want any kind of close cooperation with the United States to distance themselves from Russia as far as possible. The fear of the Russian bear goes deep and for that Russia has only itself to blame.
 
 

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Old 12-21-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Are you really claiming that NATO was not created in response to Russian hegemony in eastern Europe? And that it's fellow countries should have tried to make nice nice with Stalin?
How on Earth could you derive that from a paragraph that begins "After the fall of the Soviet Union...." Are you stupid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
Why couldn't the Russians see things from our side? Basically, why couldn't they see that we weren't going to capitulate and hand over western Europe to their authoritarian, communist regime after fighting two world wars in that theater?
Russia is a communist country? Ok, in that case so is Georgia and Ukraine, and we should be afraid of Georgia and Ukraine. Hell, lets throw in East Germany while we're at it. Why shouldn't we fear Georgia, Ukraine, and East Germany, but we should fear Russia? I don't understand your logic.

You have utterly failed at geography, and therefore are not in a position to even try to post in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaDaimon
DE looks at it from the perspective of the Russians, who for decades didn't believe that eastern european countries had rights and should be satalite-states of soviet Russia. (It pretty much shows the way he talks about the nations of eastern europe in his post, not as actors, but as territory)
Soviet Union. Remember that Ukraine and Georgia were just as much a part of the Soviet Union as Russia. Why do they get a free pass?

But it's funny that you bring up past history when my paragraph clearly begins with "After the fall of the Soviet Union..." If this is a valid argument, then I don't see how you can justify sending 4 billion dollars to Georgia, or for that matter helping Germany rebuild after WW2. According to you we should be afraid of Germany still, and we should be openly hostile towards them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaDaimon
He therefore is inable to understand that the nations of eastern european will want any kind of close cooperation with the United States to distance themselves from Russia as far as possible. The fear of the Russian bear goes deep and for that Russia has only itself to blame.
Aren't you a member country of NATO? Georgia was considering joining NATO prior to them starting a war with Russia, are you seriously going to say that we should be engaged in WW3 right now? Is that a better solution? Let me know.
 
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Old 12-22-2008
 
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Your NATO comment was in a different paragraph altogether, so quit lying.

By asking "How would you feel?" you imply that America's actions were wrong because we didn't consider how Russia would feel.

You said,
Quote:
Or let's say Russia was starting a defense pact like NATO and started recruiting our neighbors like Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, Canada, etc. Would you not feel threatened/provoked?
That can only mean you are arguing against the formation of NATO in 1949 because it leads to "conflict". France, West Germany, and Britain aren't neighborly enough for you? Were we wrong for arming them too? Yeah that's well before the fall of the Soviet Union. I was merely calling out how stupid your moral relativist bullshit is because it has ludicrous consequences. If you didn't mean "starting", then retract it.

Quote:
Russia is a communist country? Ok, in that case so is Georgia and Ukraine, and we should be afraid of Georgia and Ukraine. Hell, lets throw in East Germany while we're at it. Why shouldn't we fear Georgia, Ukraine, and East Germany, but we should fear Russia? I don't understand your logic.

You have utterly failed at geography, and therefore are not in a position to even try to post in this thread.
I said AUTHORITARIAN COMMUNISM. I hope you know the difference between that and communism.

Can you prove Georgia and the Ukraine are communist, much less authoritarian communist?

Anyway, you're the one that brought up the formation of NATO-like pact. That's not the same as adding new members to an already existing pact. I wasn't talking about Georgia and the Ukraine. And about that, as far as I am concerned, the more we arm the former satellites the weaker Russia becomes. That's fine by me, and your assertion that it is "racism" is utter bullshit.
 

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Old 12-22-2008
 
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Putin's recent actions just prove that Russia is still a hornet's nest, and that there are an awful lot of communists still in there, thus, you have no way of ensuring that any friendly aid actually goes where it's supposed to, kind of like in Africa.

Besides, Russia dug itself into that hole , so it can dig itself out, and you can't honestly expect me to believe that trying to do the digging for them would help, hells, it might just appear that the USSR collapsed due to western intervention, rather than the stupidity of its leaders, and then bang goes the chances of an agreement.
 
 

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Old 12-22-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Your NATO comment was in a different paragraph altogether, so quit lying.

By asking "How would you feel?" you imply that America's actions were wrong because we didn't consider how Russia would feel.
Yes, Russia, not the Soviet Union. You seem to be using these two different terms interchangeably, which is where the confusion starts I guess. It's your own fault for using incorrect terms. Russia /=/ Soviet Union.

And yes, I don't think it was right to talk about putting up defensive shields in the Ukraine or forming defensive pacts with Georgia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
That can only mean you are arguing against the formation of NATO in 1949 because it leads to "conflict". France, West Germany, and Britain aren't neighborly enough for you? Were we wrong for arming them too? Yeah that's well before the fall of the Soviet Union. I was merely calling out how stupid your moral relativist bullshit is because it has ludicrous consequences. If you didn't mean "starting", then retract it.
Absolutely false, that part in red. I was arguing against the United States wishing to go to war with Russia over a country like Georgia, which is exactly what would have happened if we allowed them to join NATO. This has nothing to do with NATO's fight against the Soviet Union, you just assumed that because you are idiotically using the terms "Russia" and "Soviet Union" interchangeably even after I clarified the difference.

When we are speaking about Russia, by default we are talking about anything after the fall of the Soviet Union. Understand?

Now, to answer your question, yes France, West Germany, and Britain definitely were not "neighborly" enough to Russia, any more than Argentina is an immediate neighbor to the United States. I was talking about the United States forming "defensive" pacts with countries like Georgia and the Ukraine, you know, Russias immediate neighbors (akin to Canada, Mexico, Cuba, etc.). These are recent events which occured after the fall of the Soviet Union.

So would you like to address my actual argument instead of the straw man that you have created and proceeded to attack? Just wondering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
I said AUTHORITARIAN COMMUNISM. I hope you know the difference between that and communism.

Can you prove Georgia and the Ukraine are communist, much less authoritarian communist?
Can you prove that Russia is communist, or "authoritarian communist" (whatever the fuck that is)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
Anyway, you're the one that brought up the formation of NATO-like pact. That's not the same as adding new members to an already existing pact. I wasn't talking about Georgia and the Ukraine. And about that, as far as I am concerned, the more we arm the former satellites the weaker Russia becomes. That's fine by me, and your assertion that it is "racism" is utter bullshit.
I'm sorry that your puny little mind wasn't able to comprehend what I said. Formation of a pact because as it stands the Warsaw Pact is dead (along with the Soviet Union FYI), so obviously they would have to form a new one. Sorry you weren't able to comprehend that, and took it to mean I was arguing against the original formation of NATO (even when I made it clear I was talking about Russia, not the Soviet Union).

And I think the fact that you are willing to go start WW3 over a country like Georgia is evidence that you are a raving lunatic. You're all fucking maniacs and your'e sending the rest of us along with your mad plans for world domination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattL
Putin's recent actions just prove that Russia is still a hornet's nest, and that there are an awful lot of communists still in there, thus, you have no way of ensuring that any friendly aid actually goes where it's supposed to, kind of like in Africa.

Besides, Russia dug itself into that hole , so it can dig itself out, and you can't honestly expect me to believe that trying to do the digging for them would help, hells, it might just appear that the USSR collapsed due to western intervention, rather than the stupidity of its leaders, and then bang goes the chances of an agreement.
It didn't have to be like that. Consider the difference in treatment towards Germany and Japan after the war versus Russia. Hell, even just consider the difference in treatment between Russia and Soviet Satellites like Ukraine and Georgia. The United States sought to humiliate Russia rather than help, and thats why we are in this situation today. Instead of an ally and trading partner as we have in Germany we now have an "enemy." Thank you foreign policy "experts!"
 
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Old 12-22-2008
 
#13
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Will the Obama administration improve the state of the world in 2009?
There's a lot of silly ideas going around, and one is that Obama can fix everything by himself. His primary goals will be to improve the state of his own country. Historically, the betterment of the US has not directly improved the entire globe. There's a lot of load inside this question, just like every other davos question.


Firstly, we are being asked if the leadership of one nation will want to and be capable of improving the world within one year. Secondly, what is an improved state? There's lots of measures of 'better.' Do we me economically? Environmental? Social and political freedoms? Crime rates? Terrorism? Health and wellness? Security? Artistically?

I suppose the answer to what an improved state would be is the question "what improvements will make the most people happy? How do we know?" For the question's sake, it really doesn't matter.

Do I believe the Obama administration really want to improve the state of the world in any of these quantitative ways? In Egypt, Sudan, Congo, Denmark, Ireland, Germany, exico, America, Iceland, North and South Korea, Taiwan, Tasmania? Global improvements are not within these narrow blinders of "America is the world," nor can it fix all the problems. It can encourage global relations, help promote diplomacy, but cooperation has never been the result of one side's efforts, and it is simply ignorant to insist your leaders will be the champion of the planet, doubly so when their goals are primarily to improve the United States of America, the world is secondary to their duty.

With a the world on the verge of a Global economic crisis, I don't believe the US will be capable of throwing resources to fix other people's problems when they have a duty to protect their own first.

So, will Obama's administration improve the state of the world within the year 2009? It's unrealistic to believe so.
 
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Old 12-22-2008
 
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Chicken or the egg? Who started fighting with who first? Why does the U.S. get the blame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hawaiian
It didn't have to be like that. Consider the difference in treatment towards Germany and Japan after the war versus Russia. Hell, even just consider the difference in treatment between Russia and Soviet Satellites like Ukraine and Georgia. The United States sought to humiliate Russia rather than help, and thats why we are in this situation today. Instead of an ally and trading partner as we have in Germany we now have an "enemy." Thank you foreign policy "experts!"
The difference is that we didn't fight a conventional war with the Soviet Union/Russia (take your pick), and as such there is no compunction to help them rebuild like we did for Germany and Japan. Sixty years of mutual antagonism also hinders any feelings of guilt for burying the Soviet Union/Russia economically. As DaDaimon has already stated, Putin and his cronies still harbor dreams of resurrecting the USSR power bloc. Arming the former satellites with missile defense systems will lessen Russian power to bully those countries and has the more important effect of protecting America. This is not lunacy.

Anyway, when Russia joins us in unilaterally opposing Iran's quest for nuclear weapons we can start talking about other issues.
 
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Old 12-22-2008
 
#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
The difference is that we didn't fight a conventional war with the Soviet Union/Russia (take your pick), and as such there is no compunction to help them rebuild like we did for Germany and Japan. Sixty years of mutual antagonism also hinders any feelings of guilt for burying the Soviet Union/Russia economically.
Oh ok that makes sense, economic/ideological warfare is worse than a surprise attack like Pearl Harbor or killing hundreds of thousands of Allied troops like the Nazis dead. It makes sense to humiliate the Russians but not the Nazis or the Japanese who attacked us. Right......

The fact is you have not put one single minute of thought into this at all. Period. We both know it. You have not even began to consider the possibility of friendship with Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. You failed to even imagine the possibility, much less contemplate it. You are applying double standards and not going into this with a clear, open mind.

I make no excuses for the actions of the Soviet Union. I am glad it was destroyed, much like I'm glad we destroyed the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese. However, our treatment of Russia was markedly different, and I think that is why our relations continue to be tense to this day.

It didn't have to be like this. Why is that so hard for you to admit? That we made a mistake, that we should have extended an arm of friendship and not tried to alienate Russia at every turn? We created a fucking Weimar Germany out of Russia when their economy collapsed, and did absolutely nothing to help them like we did with Germany after the war. Don't sit here like an ass and make excuses that completely fail at logic, just admit we made some mistakes and should have taken another route (or is that too hard for you to do, to admit that we make mistakes?).

And the worst thing is, it wouldn't be so bad if we didn't help them, just so long as we didn't completely fucking surround them. This is blatant and open hostility and aggression for no reason whatsoever. You again failed to answer my question, instead you just dodged it as usual. How do you think we would feel if another country surrounded us? If NATO kicked out the US but had Cuba, Canada, Mexico, and Haiti join, and proceeded to put up missile shields around them? Is it so hard for you to imagine how other people see things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
As DaDaimon has already stated, Putin and his cronies still harbor dreams of resurrecting the USSR power bloc.
And part of this has to do with our actions towards Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. Putin is only powerful now because of Russia poor economic condition, similar to how Hitler rose to power. The Russian people needed a sense of empowerment and he gave that to them. With Putin came a wave of rising nationalism, but you're too blind to see this because it's impossible for you to ever admit any wrongdoing whatsoever on our part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
Arming the former satellites with missile defense systems will lessen Russian power to bully those countries and has the more important effect of protecting America. This is not lunacy.
Your right, fuck it. Let's just start WW3 already, why wait right? If we're gonna end the world and life on Earth as we know it, it may as well be over an insignificant country like Georgia, and the war must serve absolutely no benefit to us in any remote possible manner as well. I wonder why I couldn't see this before! The guy with 10,000 nukes will win against the guy with 8,000 nukes, so lets start another arms race!

I'm tired of trying to reason with people like you. I say fuck it, let's do it already, if you guys want WW3 then there is nothing I can say or do to stop you.

"Arguing with people who have lost all sense of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." ---Thomas Paine

With people like you in charge of our foreign policy, why would Russia even desire to cooperate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse
Anyway, when Russia joins us in unilaterally opposing Iran's quest for nuclear weapons we can start talking about other issues.
Show us some evidence that Iran seeks nuclear weapons.
 
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