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Old 10-20-2008
 
#1
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Default Joe the liar

I don't understand why people lie so much about their political affiliations, even on this forum. Every time you see a "focus group" of "undecided voters" it's always bullshit. Joe is not undecided, he is decidedly voting for McCain, just like he did in the primaries. He's a registered Republican and clearly a McCain supporter.

So obviously he had to lie about being taxed by Obamas plan, because he doesn't make over $250,000 per year and he wouldn't even if he bought the plumbing business, which he's not going to.

Fuck "Joe the Plumber," I'm tired of hearing about this dipshit. Obama should just come out and say that he's not going to tax Joe the Plumber because Joe the Liar does not and will not make over $250k a year.

Partisans need to stop acting like their are undecided, independent, centrist, or whatever the hell they are pretending to be.
 
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Old 10-20-2008
 
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You know what's even more fun about 'Joe the Plumber'? He's related to the Keating Family, yes that one.
 
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Old 10-20-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Donald Rumsfeld View Post
I don't understand why people lie so much about their political affiliations, even on this forum. Every time you see a "focus group" of "undecided voters" it's always bullshit. Joe is not undecided, he is decidedly voting for McCain, just like he did in the primaries. He's a registered Republican and clearly a McCain supporter.

So obviously he had to lie about being taxed by Obamas plan, because he doesn't make over $250,000 per year and he wouldn't even if he bought the plumbing business, which he's not going to.

Fuck "Joe the Plumber," I'm tired of hearing about this dipshit. Obama should just come out and say that he's not going to tax Joe the Plumber because Joe the Liar does not and will not make over $250k a year.

Partisans need to stop acting like their are undecided, independent, centrist, or whatever the hell they are pretending to be.
I thought it was stated that he wanted to buy out a business valued over 250k, not that he made over 250k.
 
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Old 10-20-2008
 
#4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Rumsfeld View Post
I don't understand why people lie so much about their political affiliations, even on this forum. Every time you see a "focus group" of "undecided voters" it's always bullshit. Joe is not undecided, he is decidedly voting for McCain, just like he did in the primaries. He's a registered Republican and clearly a McCain supporter.

So obviously he had to lie about being taxed by Obamas plan, because he doesn't make over $250,000 per year and he wouldn't even if he bought the plumbing business, which he's not going to.

Fuck "Joe the Plumber," I'm tired of hearing about this dipshit. Obama should just come out and say that he's not going to tax Joe the Plumber because Joe the Liar does not and will not make over $250k a year.

Partisans need to stop acting like their are undecided, independent, centrist, or whatever the hell they are pretending to be.

as a basic level plumber with no training, i made 45k my first year. that goes up even more with more licenses. and if he owns his own business, it is quite possible that he will make over 250k a year. i mean, as unlikely as it is, because no business has EVER made more than 250k a year, not once in recorded history has it ever happened, he could still do it because there is always a first.
 
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Old 10-20-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Rumsfeld View Post
I don't understand why people lie so much about their political affiliations, even on this forum. Every time you see a "focus group" of "undecided voters" it's always bullshit. Joe is not undecided, he is decidedly voting for McCain, just like he did in the primaries. He's a registered Republican and clearly a McCain supporter.

So obviously he had to lie about being taxed by Obamas plan, because he doesn't make over $250,000 per year and he wouldn't even if he bought the plumbing business, which he's not going to.

Fuck "Joe the Plumber," I'm tired of hearing about this dipshit. Obama should just come out and say that he's not going to tax Joe the Plumber because Joe the Liar does not and will not make over $250k a year.

Partisans need to stop acting like their are undecided, independent, centrist, or whatever the hell they are pretending to be.
If you are claiming that Joe was put up to this by the McCain campaign, you're dead wrong and have no evidence. Who the fuck cares who Joe is going to support? He asked a legitimate question and got an answer. Is a Republican not allowed to ask a question of a Democrat candidate that is walking down his street, or should it remain a bunch of drooling drones that only get to ask questions?

You see DR, it doesn't matter whether Joe makes x amount of dollars or how he is affected by Obama's tax plan as of this moment. Is it disingenuous for someone to be concerned about future earning potential that he doesn't want Obama to take away? I don't think so and it doesn't constitute a lie.

What matters is that Obama has now been called out on how he really views the world and the role of government. The person who needs to explain himself is Obama. The media is pissed that the PR bubble Obama created around his tax plan has burst and now the true ramifications on small business is coming out.

Attacking Joe for asking a question is a waste of time. The media investigation into Joe's background has got to be the most disgusting attack on a private citizen I can remember. It's bullying, to be quite frank, and that is why he needs to be defended.

Edit: Oh, and I agree that there is no such thing as an undecided voter.
 

Last edited by WindowlessHouse; 10-20-2008 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 10-20-2008
 
#6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
If you are claiming that Joe was put up to this by the McCain campaign, you're dead wrong and have no evidence. Who the fuck cares who Joe is going to support? He asked a legitimate question and got an answer. Is a Republican not allowed to ask a question of a Democrat candidate that is walking down his street, or should it remain a bunch of drooling drones that only get to ask questions?

You see DR, it doesn't matter whether Joe makes x amount of dollars or how he is affected by Obama's tax plan as of this moment. Is it disingenuous for someone to be concerned about future earning potential that he doesn't want Obama to take away? I don't think so and it doesn't constitute a lie.

What matters is that Obama has now been called out on how he really views the world and the role of government. The person who needs to explain himself is Obama. The media is pissed that the PR bubble Obama created around his tax plan has burst and now the true ramifications on small business is coming out.

Attacking Joe for asking a question is a waste of time. The media investigation into Joe's background has got to be the most disgusting attack on a private citizen I can remember. It's bullying, to be quite frank, and that is why he needs to be defended.

Edit: Oh, and I agree that there is no such thing as an undecided voter.
exactly, the guy asked a real question, and didn't get an answer he liked. isn't it the job of the voter to make an informed decision that is best for them and their situation? to say this guy has no right to ask a question to a candidate because he is a registered republican is absolutely hypocritical and really shows the double-standards that are so prevalent in our society. if this was the other way around, and he promoted obama, you would using this forum as your soapbox and be preaching the good name of our Liberal Lord and Savior, Barack Obama.
 
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Old 10-20-2008
 
#7
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Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
What matters is that Obama has now been called out on how he really views the world and the role of government. The person who needs to explain himself is Obama. The media is pissed that the PR bubble Obama created around his tax plan has burst and now the true ramifications on small business is coming out.
last I checked it's a very small percent of small businesses that would be affected, actual vs what McCain's been saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Edit: Oh, and I agree that there is no such thing as an undecided voter.
i dunno, I would assume undecideds are either idiots (ala Daily Show) or just so apathetic they don't give a shit and will end up voting for whoever looks better or whatever.

Joe the Plumber though is so dammed stupid though. Why the fuck should we care about this guy? Hell he's been almost as vetted as Palin at this point.
 
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Old 10-20-2008
 
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You guys who have replied to DE obviously don't read the news very often. It turned out that joe the plumber was not a licensed plumber, nor did he plan on buying a business as large as he said he was. That's the context for DE's post.
 
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Old 10-20-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
You guys who have replied to DE obviously don't read the news very often. It turned out that joe the plumber was not a licensed plumber, nor did he plan on buying a business as large as he said he was. That's the context for DE's post.
Yeah, and my point is that Joe is irrelevant. What is relevant, is Obama's response to the question.
 
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Old 10-20-2008
 
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I was under the impression you didn't need a license for plumbing, rather it was sort of an optional thing (while useful, wasn't required).

EDIT: what question is it that this sam guy asked? // Uhm this you mean?



Transcript?:
From two days ago, Obama canvassing in Holland, Ohio:
Then a big, bald man with a goatee asks if he believes in the American dream. He tells Obama he’s getting ready to buy a company that makes more than $250,000 a year. “Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn’t it?”

Obama tells him he’d get a 50% tax credit – a cut in taxes for health care. “if your revenue is above 250 – then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true that from 250 up – from 250 – 300 or so, so for that additional amount, you’d go fro 36 to 39%, which is what it was under Bill Clinton. And the reason why we’re doing that is because 95% of small businesses make less than 250. So what I want to do is give them a tax cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut. And so what we’re doing is, we are saying that folks who make more than 250 that that marginal amount above 250 – they’re gonna be taxed at a 39 instead of a 36% rate.”

The man says he’s a hard working plumber for 15 years – why should he be taxed more?

Obama says, “over the last 15 years, when you weren’t making 250, you would have been given a tax cut from me, so you’d actually have more money, which means you would have saved more, which means you would have gotten to the point where you could build your small business quicker than under the current tax code. So there are two ways of looking at it – I mean one way of looking at it is, now that you’ve become more successful through hard work – you don’t want to be taxed as much.”

The man says, “Exactly.”

Obama contined, “But another way of looking at it is, 95% of folks who are making less than 250, they may be working hard too, but they’re being taxed at a higher rate than they would be under mine. So what I’m doing is, put yourself back 10 years ago when you were only making whatever. 60 or 70. Under my tax plan you would be keeping more of your paycheck, you’d be paying lower taxes, which means you would have saved down to the point where you (inaudible). Now look, nobody likes high taxes. Of course not. But what’s happened is is that we end up – we’ve cut taxes a lot for folks like me who make a lot more than 250. We haven’t given a break to folks who make less, and as a consequence, the average wage and income for ordinary folks, the vast majority of Americans, has actually gone down over the last 8 years. So all I want to do is – I’ve got a tax cut. The only thing that changes is I’m gonna cut taxes a little bit more for the folks who are most in need and for the 5% of the folks who are doing very well - even though they’ve been working hard and I appreciate that – I just want to make sure they’re paying a little bit more in order to pay for those other tax cuts. Now, I respect the disagreement. I just want you to be clear – it’s not that I want to punish your success – I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you – that they’ve got a chance at success too.”

The man says it seems like Obama would be for a flat tax.

Obama says, “you know, I would be open to it except here’s the problem with a flat tax is that if you actually put a flat tax together, in order for it to work and replace all the rvenue that we’ve got, you’d probably end up having to make it like about a 40% sales tax. I mean that’s the value added, making it up. Now some people say 23 or 25, but in truth when you add up all the revenue that would need to be raised, you’d have to slap on a whole bunch of sales taxes on. And I do believe for folks like me who have worked hard, but frankly also been lucky, I don’t mind paying just a little bit more than the waitress that I just met over there who’s things are slow and she can barely make the rent. Because my attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. If you’ve got a plumbing business, you’re gonna be better off if you’re gonna be better off if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody **** and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody. **** But listen, I respect what you do and I respect your question, and even if I don’t get your vote, I’m still gonna be working hard on your behalf because small businesses are what creates jobs in this country and I want to encourage it.”

The crowd cheered and Obama added, “for small business people, I’m gonna eliminate the capital gains tax, so what it means is if your business succeeds and let’s say you take it from a $250,000 business to a $500,000 business, that capital gains that you get – we’re not gonna tax you on it because I want you to grow (inaudible). So you’re actually gonna get some, you may end up – I’d have to look your particular business, but you might end up paying lower taxes under my plan and my approach than under JSM’s (inaud). I couldn’t guarantee that, ‘cause I’d have to take a look at ---

The man says, “Oh yeah, I understand that.”


Is his answer evil? I'm confused.
 

Last edited by Neo; 10-20-2008 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 10-20-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
You guys who have replied to DE obviously don't read the news very often. It turned out that joe the plumber was not a licensed plumber, nor did he plan on buying a business as large as he said he was. That's the context for DE's post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WindowlessHouse View Post
Yeah, and my point is that Joe is irrelevant. What is relevant, is Obama's response to the question.
I think Obama handled the question like a pro. He actually explained, in detail, how exactly his tax plan was going to affect Joe under what he claimed to have made and furthermore the underlying reasoning behind the plan.

But now that the subject of Joe comes up, I'm curious as to why he would lie about his situation in order to make it look like he'd fit into a higher tax bracket. Seems like the incentive there is to make it look like he'd be taxed more and make it look detrimental to Obama's tax plan when such would not be the case in reality, in which case there's an agenda there.
 
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Old 10-20-2008
 
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So the guy asks a question and he gets pilloried for it.

This is what you worthless scum have degenerated American politics into: ask a question, get your character impugned. Where did he lie? He said he was planning to buy the business he works for, which is him and some other guy who's preparing to retire. Which would put him into the higher tax bracket if his plans go through. Obama's answer is bullshit. Keep your gross below 250K and you'll be taxed less. That's the American dream right there, set a maximum limit on your gross income to avoid higher taxes. American dream for sure Senator Obama.

But oh wait the guy isn't going to get a chance to move into that higher tax bracket now because of scum like DE and DM who have effectively destroyed his chances to ever advance himself now that they've gone after every aspect of his life. He can make 50 grand a year for the rest of his life, maybe get up to 75 if he's lucky, instead of creating more wealth for his family and any employees he might have wanted to hire in the future because the news media and scum like you two have gone after him. Should be fucking ashamed of yourselves.
 

Last edited by Chaos; 10-20-2008 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 10-20-2008
 
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He can make 50 grand a year for the rest of his life, maybe get up to 75 if he's lucky, instead of creating more wealth for his family and any employees he might have wanted to hire in the future because the news media and scum like you two have gone after him. Should be fucking ashamed of yourselves.
While others won't make it that far because they don't get tax breaks because scum like you only care about lining the pockets of the upper class while the middle class is being eroded and the wealth gap keeps growing. Should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

See, I can do that bullshit too.

Not that I agree with either of the candidate's tax plans mind you.

And I was only asking why Joe would claim a higher financial status than would be the case as the OP indicated.

This is what you worthless scum have degenerated American politics into: ask a question, get your character impugned.
 
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"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight-of-hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in inequity and born in sin. But if you want to continue to be slaves of the bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers continue to create money and control credit."

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Old 10-20-2008
 
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And I was only asking why Joe would claim a higher financial status than would be the case as the OP indicated.
I already answered this, but no one seems to care.

Quote:
You see DR, it doesn't matter whether Joe makes x amount of dollars or how he is affected by Obama's tax plan as of this moment. Is it disingenuous for someone to be concerned about future earning potential that he doesn't want Obama to take away? I don't think so and it doesn't constitute a lie.

 
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Old 10-22-2008
 
#15
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Originally Posted by Typhun View Post
as a basic level plumber with no training, i made 45k my first year. that goes up even more with more licenses. and if he owns his own business, it is quite possible that he will make over 250k a year. i mean, as unlikely as it is, because no business has EVER made more than 250k a year, not once in recorded history has it ever happened, he could still do it because there is always a first.
The plumbing business he was talking about buying doesn't make anything even close to 250k per year, thats just bullshit. He just have been honest about the whole thing, instead of, well, lying. He's not going to make 250k this year or any other year, whether he buys that business or not. Hes simply a partisan hack pretending to be an undecided voter, and now the right wing media (Fox News) has turned him into some kind of suburban hero which he is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlesshouse
If you are claiming that Joe was put up to this by the McCain campaign, you're dead wrong and have no evidence. Who the fuck cares who Joe is going to support? He asked a legitimate question and got an answer. Is a Republican not allowed to ask a question of a Democrat candidate that is walking down his street, or should it remain a bunch of drooling drones that only get to ask questions?

You see DR, it doesn't matter whether Joe makes x amount of dollars or how he is affected by Obama's tax plan as of this moment. Is it disingenuous for someone to be concerned about future earning potential that he doesn't want Obama to take away? I don't think so and it doesn't constitute a lie.

What matters is that Obama has now been called out on how he really views the world and the role of government. The person who needs to explain himself is Obama. The media is pissed that the PR bubble Obama created around his tax plan has burst and now the true ramifications on small business is coming out.

Attacking Joe for asking a question is a waste of time. The media investigation into Joe's background has got to be the most disgusting attack on a private citizen I can remember. It's bullying, to be quite frank, and that is why he needs to be defended.

Edit: Oh, and I agree that there is no such thing as an undecided voter.
First of all, I never said the McCain campaign put him up to this, though they are starting to make this a central theme. I said he was a blatant McCain supporter and he should stop trying to pretend that he's not. And yes, to answer your question, this is disingenuous. If I say that I'm "undecided" when really I'm gonna vote for Ron Paul, that is a lie. Stop trying to twist my words, my attack against him is not his question, but in fact his lies, which you are failing to acknowledge.

Obama has already explained his tax plan, why on Earth should he explain anything more? Joe asked a question (which he lied about, actually) and got an honest answer from Obama. What exactly did Obama do wrong in that situation? I've pointed out exactly where Joe lied (not making 250k per year, nor is the business he wants to buy), where did Obama lie?

And the "media investigation into his backround" is an attack? Are you kidding? Verifying the validity and truth of a persons statement is now an attack? Get over yourself. The guy told a lie and the media called him on it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that and I implore you to demonstrate otherwise

edit: Oh and I saw this retarded piece of crap (no, not Chaos' post, that was not worthy of a reply by anyone) and decided to address it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhun
exactly, the guy asked a real question, and didn't get an answer he liked. isn't it the job of the voter to make an informed decision that is best for them and their situation? to say this guy has no right to ask a question to a candidate because he is a registered republican is absolutely hypocritical and really shows the double-standards that are so prevalent in our society. if this was the other way around, and he promoted obama, you would using this forum as your soapbox and be preaching the good name of our Liberal Lord and Savior, Barack Obama.
Unfortunately nobody ever claimed Joe has "no right to ask a question because he's a Republican," that fantasy exists solely in your mind and also WindowlessHouse too, he somehow managed to see something that wasn't there also. Hell, Chaos somehow saw the same thing. Is this mass hysteria?

The actual (read: real, existing, tangible, verifiable, i.e. somewhere other than your imagination) argument against Joe is that he lied when he asked the question, not that he's a Republican. If he had said "my rich friend" or "in my distant future" something along those lines, it would have been accurate. But for him to falsely suggest that Obamas tax plan would tax him more is just a lie, period, end of discussion.
 

Last edited by The Hawaiian; 10-22-2008 at 01:53 PM.
The Hawaiian has 8,445 Posts

"The Khala awaits me, and though I fear not death, you will not find me easy prey."
 

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