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Old 01-21-2009
 
#76
United States JT
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeber View Post
Yeah I'd say they're still a few hundred years away from that sort of reformation.... considering their response to moderate reformers is quite often to...er...kill them.
Also, Islam treats Mohemmed as God's final prophet, so trying to reform Islam would come with more resistance from the believers. At least with Judaism, they've always had a belief that a Messiah would come to save them, which allowed Jesus (regardless if he was the Messiah or not) to "update" the belief structures.
 
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Old 01-21-2009
 
#77
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
Racism is not an innate quality, it's learned. Children don't see by colors and if they are racist it's because of what they learned in the home. Children will make friends with anyone and do not identify with others based on the color of their skin. It's only when they get older and learn about biases and prejudices that they start to display them.
You are full of shit, as usual. Your unsupported assertion falls flat.
 
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Old 01-21-2009
 
#78
United States The Hawaiian
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeber View Post
Gee thats strange, I don't ever remember calling for all blacks to apologize on behalf of all blacks.

There is no 'rule book' for being black.

There is a rule book for being Muslim, that's the difference and it's totally vile, especially given how often it's taken literally.
So a moderate Muslim should apologize for the actions of an extremist? Why is that exactly? Should atheists apologize for Stalin or Maos actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zg
Yeah man I want payment from the Italians for invading two of my ancestral homelands, England and France.

I want payment from the Muslims for invading France in 1200 years ago.

The Nordic side of me will be paying the Celtic side of me for invading ancient Britain, also, my Scottish ancestry demands payment from all English people (whoops, that's me too!) for the wrongs done to the people of Scotland.

Hell maybe my hatred for Islam really is an historical grievance!
Hey, you're the one discriminating against billions of people because of the actions of a few. What next, lets kill the Christians because a Christian guy murdered his father?

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Originally Posted by zg
You suck Hawaiian, you believe in nothing, go home.
I don't agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zg
As Megan said earlier in the New Testament Jesus did stand explicitly against extreme punishments such as stoning. This may have something to do with my stoning is pretty uncommon in Christian countries.

On the other hand stoning in many Muslim countries, as well as honor killings, hangings for gays etc is pretty common.

I think it's reasonable to make a judgment about the two religions in their current form based on this. Islam is in the darkages and should totally be discriminated against because of the ideas it promotes and the effects those ideas have on people and society.
Double standards again. Where is your evidence that stoning is "pretty common?" It is the most uncommon form of punishment I can think of because of the overwhelming burden of proof it requires. Only Saudi Arabia (Americas great "ally"), that bastion of freedom and democracy, is the country I can think of where stoning is most common.

Stoning is prescribed in the bible and Torah as a punishment for a wide range of offenses, including cursing God and pre-marital sex, or simply disobeying your parents. Also the burden of proof is much lower.

But I guess it makes sense to discriminate against all Muslims because of a rare practice that only extremists in remote parts of backwards country use, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
Well all this is coming from the Hawaiian who at first questioned the very existance of God and then professed he got saved by Jesus Christ in basic training, then says he considers himself a secular Jew, and now is advocating Islam because he married a Muslim. It seems to me who ever he fancies at the time he tends to follow, at this time it seems to be his wife. I wonder what's next? He dated me at one time before he married his wife, I'm Christian, then he started hanging out with Jews, then he married a Muslim. Do you see a pattern here, because I do. I don't think he knows what the hell he believes in to be quite frank.
Well you are ignored but somebody quoted you. First of all you're an idiot, a complete fucking moron. I never ever once in my life claimed to be "saved by Jesus Christ." I have never believed that Jesus is God. Never ever. I've always thought of God as being one, Jesus being merely a prophet or perhaps Gods greatest son, maybe the greatest human who ever lived, but certainly not "equal" to God. Being that I believe in God but not that Jesus = God I guessed that the closest religion next to what I believe would be secular Jew, however that was an approximation (I don't expect you to understand what that word means, after all you're a complete fucking moron). And I am not "advocating Islam" you stupid, stupid little girl. I'm sorry you can't understand the difference between defending innocent people and practicing a religion. I am not Muslim, never have been and never will be. But I have always felt obligated to help out innocent people who are being oppressed by racist pieces of shit. Fighting ignorance is no vice, and I make no apologies for that.
 

Last edited by Zero; 01-21-2009 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Let's make this a little nicer.
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Old 01-21-2009
 
#79
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Originally Posted by All Knowing Wikipedia Article
It is logical to assume that a predisposition to tribalism and specifically to genocide aided early humans in their expansion into Europe, though no evidence of such activity exists.
Wikipedia ftw!

Ethnocentrism and tribalism are not necessarily equivalent to racism. I think we are stepping too close to a revisionist look at historical events.
 

Last edited by Mike; 01-21-2009 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 01-21-2009
 
#80
United States GenocideAlive
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
Wikipedia ftw!
Poisoning the well FTW!
Quote:
Ethnocentrism and tribalism are not necessarily equivalent to racism. I think we are stepping too close to a revisionist look at historical events.
Thus, ethnocentric individuals would have a higher survival rate -- or at least, with their higher commitment to the group, more opportunities to breed. A more significant vector may be that groups with a strong sense of unity and identity can benefit from kin selection behavior such as common property and shared resources. The tendency of members to unite against an outside tribe and the ability to act violently and prejudicially against that outside tribe likely boosted the chances of survival in genocidal conflicts. Logically, a distinct divide between one's own group and other groups fosters the ability of the individual to interact with members of those groups in a manner that is equally distinct: one being altruistic (in the case of a group of unrelated members) or kin-selective (in the case of a group of more or less related members), the other being violent.

I'm not sure who would be ethnocentric and able to perform kin selection within a tribe other than members of the same race. But feel free to quote another one liner that you can take out of context to infer that the article is arguing with itself. It's fairly obvious where the origins of racism exist, which answers the OP's question. You, on the other hand, can continue with your lack of references and BS about what you "think" and where we're "stepping".

I'm going to get some popcorn and watch the fight.
 

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Old 01-21-2009
 
#81
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GA, your link does not even begin to contradict what I said.

"Racism is not an innate quality, it's learned. Children don't see by colors and if they are racist it's because of what they learned in the home. Children will make friends with anyone and do not identify with others based on the color of their skin. It's only when they get older and learn about biases and prejudices that they start to display them."

Were you talking about children tribes? No I dont think you were. Please learn to read before you go off making insults about "You are full of shit, as usual. Your unsupported assertion falls flat."

Your link only confirms the idea that racism is a learned behavior and not something that is innate within our genes. I point to children as the primary example because my mother is a preschool teacher so I have a lot of experience to draw from. I have never once observed a child who identifies with other children based on their skin color. In the few examples of racism that my mother told me about it was learned from their parents in the home, "I don't like you because your black." I don't think a child could arrive to such a conclusion on their own, but feel free to argue that.
 
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Old 01-21-2009
 
#82
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You cannot be so ignorant as to assume that a link to Tribalism is grounds for dismissal because it isn't about children. Did you even read the link? At all?

Tribalism is the most fundamental form of civilization known to man. It is characteristically defined by a social system of kinship based altruism. In EZ speak, it means that people will look out for their families. When they look out for their families, they in effect, look out for their interests via a social construct.

Way back when man was first stepping out on his own, he discovered that he could be a shitty blacksmith, shitty leatherworker, shitty cook, and shitty hunter all in the same lifetime before he died of dozens of causes. OR he could be a good blacksmith and trade shit with leatherworkers, cooks, and hunters so that the quality of EVERYONE'S life improved. The hunter's arrows flew farther and pierced deeper, resulting in more kills. The cook's processes of preservation and preparation lowered infection from food. The leatherworker's sharper knife and more time to spend resulted in warmer, better fitting clothes. Man discovered the social construct was the superior means of living, and so after a few bazillion generations it became ingrained in our brains that our odds of survival were much better if we were around others. This crude amalagam of people was termed a "tribe", and the practice of grouping became known as "tribalism".

You'll note that many people of a particular race refer to themselves as "we" or "us" when referring to a particular race. This is because they identify with the race and thereby adopt themselves to it as a social construct. Women do it, men do it, races, do it, so on. This isn't something that one or two people did this one time at band camp. This tendency of all individuals towards social valuation isn't some learned bullshit as you completely fabricated, it's considered an evolutionary trait. These people's instinct for survival was to stick by humans, the side effect was that we became used to humans with which we could identify.

I linked "Tribalism and Evolution" because I thought that you could infer for yourself that if something is practiced as the most basic tenet of all civilizations and still retained today, that obviously genetic factors are being involved. But apparently, since I didn't mention something about children tribes, retention of evolutionarily advantageous traits is somehow a red herring to your well-documented thorough observations of your mother's preschool class.
 

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Old 01-21-2009
 
#83
United States The Hawaiian
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Wow, that point just completely flew over your head didn't it? The point is that racism is a learned behavior, and everything you just said only confirms this observation.

Your argument obviously doesn't hold up. Just because something is practiced in all societies does not mean it's not a learned behavior. Peoples independently developed fire but that doesn't mean we are born with the knowledge to make fire. Firemaking is a learned behavior.

And yes, children are the control in any case because they haven't learned anything yet. If children don't see colors but learn racism later in life then we can only assume that racism is a learned behavior. Sorry, there is no "racism gene" GA. Nobody is denying the fact that humans identify with people "like us," but this doesn't change the fact that racism is a learned behavior.
 
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Old 01-21-2009
 
#84
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Hawaiian you are full of it. But here's some valid information and points to refute the Hawaiians argument above. You never accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior? You claimed to be Christian for a time and Christians accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior as you once did. Also an advocate is; preach: speak, plead, or argue in favor of like for instance how you are arguing against violence for Islam and all other innocent people or so you say. You don't have to be a Muslim to be an advocate for Islam and I never stated you were. Oh and Lol your comment on how you would consider yourself a Secular Jew was only an approxamation, wow you'd do or say anything to try and prove yourself in any situation. That would be like saying I'm close to or similar to a Jew, wow is your mother Jewish have you considered going through the conversion process?
 

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Old 01-21-2009
 
#85
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The sheer stupidity of DE's posts makes my head hurt so much. Honestly, how can someone be that dense?

In this futile post, I will say that racism has a link to tribalism, the earliest form of social identification. This was based on appearance, just as racism is. The behavior of early human civilizations and evidence beforehand makes it clear that violence between tribes was frequent. What today would be called racist sentiment is a fact of those times. Racism is the evolution of tribalism; as human civilization progressed, tribes banded together into city-states and eventually into nations, but with the same rules: your nation was made up of people who looked like you. This is still the case for almost all of the world. The supremacism that today is racism was originally familial and then tribal. With the dissolution of the tribes into nations and the broadening of social identification, skin color rather than specific features became the standard of identification. Even if from another country, a man with the same color skin as you was innately more trustworthy than someone with a different skin color. This still exists, again, in large areas of the world today, most of the world in fact.

Specific ideologies of racism are learned. The capacity for it is not.
 
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Old 01-22-2009
 
#86
United States The Hawaiian
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Wow Megan, stalking me on other forums now? Yeah, thats normal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive_love

Have you taken a look at this yet? Maybe you should see a psychiatrist or some other professional help? Take a step back for a second and look at the situation. You are married, you have a child, but you're still posting here on blizzforums and revolving your time around me, why is that? I've been posting on blizzforums since I was a child, and I still play Starcraft. Whether you come here or not I am still here, I don't even think about you nor do I concern myself with what you might be doing in your day-to-day dealings. That is normal, because we are done with. It's over, and I have moved on (got married, baby on the way).

You, being the crazy fucking psychotic whacko that you are, then go and get maried to one of my friends who I haven't spoken to in years. Then post pictures of the marriage here as if to "prove" to me that you got married and you moved on (which you obviously haven't, seriously wtf is going on Megan, are you OK?). First you say you're getting married to some dude in the Navy then about 2 months later you are married to Ruben? What....the....FUCK? Seriously Megan? Are you that desperate?

It's pretty obvious why I got married (baby). I personally don't believe in abortion so it was an easy choice for me. You in all likelihood got married as some sort of bizarre act of retaliation against me. You remind me of that crazy bitch from Waynes World. Nobody but your close personal friends and your grandma think that you are a sane person. Megan you are seriously fucked up in the head and you need help. I'm telling you this as a friend. Get some fucking help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
So the screen shot wouldn't patse for some reason but anyway Hawaiian you are full of it. But here's some valid information and points to refute the Hawaiians argument above. You never accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior? You claimed to be Christian for a time and Christians accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior as you once did.
I agree with many of the principles of the Christian faith, and the overall message is positive. Jesus --whoever he was-- his message is one we should live by regardless of your beliefs. That being said, I have never in my life believed Jesus = God, not once, not ever. Inspired by God, close to God, Gods favorite son, Gods chosen, perhaps, but not God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
Also an advocate is; preach: speak, plead, or argue in favor of like for instance how you are arguing against violence for Islam and all other innocent people or so you say. You don't have to be a Muslim to be an advocate for Islam and I never stated you were.
In that case I'm an advocate for balanced rational discourse on the subject of Islam, as opposed to anti-Islamic hysteria. I am not "advocating Islam" you fucking moron. If I were doing that I would say God is Great and Muhamed is his Messenger (Peace be upon him). I'm not trying to convert anyone to Islam because I'm not a Muslim. Thus, I'm not an "advocate" of Islam.

I defend the rights of gay people too, does that make me an "advocate" of homosexuality, something I don't approve of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
Oh and Lol your comment on how you would consider yourself a Secular Jew was only an approxamation, wow you'd do or say anything to try and prove yourself in any situation. That would be like saying I'm close to or similar to a Jew, wow is your mother Jewish have you considered going through the conversion process?
You are fucking stupid idiot Megan. Let me try to explain this to you:

I believe in the God of the bible. I believe in many things that the bible talks about, but not everything literally. I don't believe that Jesus = God. I prefer the Old Testament when reading, but also agree with many of the teachings of Jesus (however Jesus /=/ God).

As far as my profile on another forum that you are stalking for some reason (seriously, get help), again you are a fucking moron Megan. If you bothered to read my posts there (which I'm sure you have) I've already laid out my beliefs. Those slots are designed in such a way that you can only answer in one way. I found God, not Jesus. You think you know everything about me but you don't. I just never felt like arguing with your dumbass because you were too stupid to understand. You were always trying to lay your fucking silly preaching to me about Jesus and I never bought it for one second. You are so full of yourself. If you wanna know the truth I've never thought much of you Megan, I was never in awe nor mesmerized by your stupidity. The thought of being married to you scared the living shit out of me, you can ask my mom if you don't believe me, thats why I kept pushing it off for so long (and thank God for that!). I tolerated it because I'm not a mean person, but you are really pissing me off right now.

However, I don't wish evil on you or want bad things to happen to you. I don't want to bring that evil into my life, my house, or my family and my son. We don't need that in our lives and we don't need you. I wish you the best Megan, God bless!
 
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Old 01-22-2009
 
#87
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Originally Posted by Deagle
I believe in the God of the bible. I believe in many things that the bible talks about, but not everything literally. I don't believe that Jesus = God. I prefer the Old Testament when reading, but also agree with many of the teachings of Jesus (however Jesus /=/ God).
You're a Unitarian?

Anyways, I'm going to have to ask you two to take your arguing to another thread or PM's. Shit's annoying.
 
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Old 01-22-2009
 
#88
United States The Hawaiian
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Seriously, I didn't even want to but she kept it up. And yeah, I just wikipedia unitarianism and I guess you could say that I am a unitarian. I didn't know what was the correct term (secular Jew, lol) or if it still made me a "true" Christian but I guess it does.

Megan, if you have anything else to say to me do it PM. I'm gonna start reporting your posts in the future, I really don't have anything to say to you.
 
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Old 01-22-2009
 
#89
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TheHawaiian, you think you could please remove me from your avatar? You make me look bad.
 
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Old 01-22-2009
 
#90
United States Megan
BF Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 241
 Megan reigns supremeMegan reigns supremeMegan reigns supremeMegan reigns supremeMegan reigns supremeMegan reigns supremeMegan reigns supremeMegan reigns supremeMegan reigns supremeMegan reigns supremeMegan reigns supreme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT View Post
You're a Unitarian?

Anyways, I'm going to have to ask you two to take your arguing to another thread or PM's. Shit's annoying.
Seconded. I have proven my point and have nothing else to say about the matter.
 
 

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