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Old 09-14-2008
 
#1
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Default Police Are Not Required to Help You

Most of us knew this already, or at least relying on the police is fundamentally risky. But apparently the police are under no legal obligation to provide aid/security/protection to individual citizens - police immunity. http://homepage.usask.ca/~sta575/cdn...issue.html#c33 (cf "Absence of a Legal Government Obligation") This is illustrated perfectly in the gritty case which upheld police immunity:
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In the case of Warren v. District of Columbia, two women were upstairs when they heard their roommate being attacked by men who had broken in downstairs. They immediately telephoned the police for assistance. Half an hour having passed and their roommate's screams having ceased, they assumed the police must have arrived and taken care of the situation. Actually, their call for help for a violent felony in progress had somehow been lost in the shuffle while the roommate was being beaten into silence. When the two roommates went downstairs, as the court's opinion graphically describes: "For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands" of their attackers.
The problem has been rectified in theory (citizens in D.C. are permitted to own weapons in self defense), but can anyone see the absurdity of gun control now? In the case of a ban, not only are you forbidden to defend yourself, if for some reason the police are late, ignore your call, or it gets lost, or a hundred other reasons, you're fucked.

Screw gun control. I want a .357 Magnum and I want mine soon.

If someone still thinks we should ban firearms I'd love to hear it.

 
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Old 09-14-2008
 
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I think it would be fair to mention that the reason that no legally binding law exists is primarily so that baseless lawsuits are not clogging up out court systems. If we were to create laws that held law enforcement liable for every misdeed that occurred on their watch, we would bankrupt every municipality in the country.

At the end of the day, law enforcement is no different than any other government entity. They are not legally bound to perform their job any more than a road worker is legally bound to pour asphalt. But should either of them fail to perform, they will ultimately lose their employment.

I know this wasn't the point of your post, but it really needed to be said.
 
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Old 09-14-2008
 
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I couldn't find any evidence that the officers in question were terminated.

I knew that a reason like that existed, but regardless - police cannot be trusted to protect you and can't be held responsible. So buy a shotgun and a .357 Mag and go to the skeet range.

 
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Old 09-14-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Philosoraptor View Post
I couldn't find any evidence that the officers in question were terminated.
Well, it really depends on whether or not the failure was intentional. There are times where police are simply overwhelmed with calls and these types of things happen. And you're exactly right, this is good cause to keep yourself safe. Nobody should ever depend on another to assist, even the police.

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I knew that a reason like that existed, but regardless - police cannot be trusted to protect you and can't be held responsible. So buy a shotgun and a .357 Mag and go to the skeet range.
I think trust is the wrong word. Given that they can respond, most cops will go above and beyond to save a life or prevent violent crime. I say most because there are always exceptions to the rule.
 
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Old 09-14-2008
 
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Buying a gun isn't worth the time. I can't actually bring it anywhere that I usually go to. I'd have to go way out of my way to bring it with me. I'd need time for training. If I do get killed, chances are I won't have time to get the gun. Not worth the time.
 
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Old 09-14-2008
 
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Default

The legal argument that the police are not required to provide assistance to citizens fails. If the police are not required to uphold the law - which the courts say they are not, the police according to them have no obligation whatsoever to come to your aid if you call them requesting help if you are the victim of a crime - then I am not required to recognize their legitimacy to stop me, detain me at the scene, question me, or arrest me.
 
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Old 09-14-2008
 
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If someone still thinks we should ban firearms I'd love to hear it.
I don't think we should ban firearms but I think people on both sides of the issue need to come together behind a common purpose:

To get our country to the point where nobody needs to own a gun to feel safe.

Unrealistic? Idealistic? Naive? Asinine? Just dumb? Maybe. But this isn't an all or none game were playing. Obviously we will never get to the point where EVERYONE feels safe ALL the time without a gun. but we can all certaintly work towards creating a country where at least a great deal more people feel safe without a gun than they do now.

Of course, that's going to take an effort not only on the government's part, but largly on our part as well. We have to work toward creating a climate in our communities that simply does not tolerate crime (im specifically thinking of the intercity communities where ive worked in the past, educating children and teens about crime and saftey. Don't tell me its not possible to make a change).

As usual, nothing is nearly as black or white as it sounds. If your true concern is your safety and the safety of the people around you, you're going to have to do alot more than keep firearms legal.
 

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Old 09-15-2008
 
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To get our country to the point where nobody needs to own a gun to feel safe.
We could achieve the same feeling if everyone owned guns.

Or if we moved morally in some ways back to America's past, where 1) you didn't know if the victim of your crime had a gun or not, and if he did, he would know how to use it, and 2) odds are if someone saw you committing a crime a mob would chase you down and beat on you until the cops arrived. Now criminals know 1) chances are your victim is not going to be armed and 2) it is almost a certainty that no third party will intervene unless the police pull around the corner at just the wrong moment.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
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Sounds as bad as down here. For example the lady next door was almost assaulted at the local shopping centre by a group of suspects who then tried to follow her home, though she lost them, but it took the police two days to arrive, and they didn't even bother to check anything, and even knew basically who the criminals were, talk about lax.

This, and other incidents have drained much of my confidence in the local police (along with the slap-on-the-hand penalties handed down to offenders), who are now more a tax-purse for the government (speeding tickets, fines, etc.) than a force for combating crime. In addition, the laws are such that the criminals are often better protected than their victims or good samaritans.
 
 

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Old 09-15-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
The legal argument that the police are not required to provide assistance to citizens fails. If the police are not required to uphold the law - which the courts say they are not, the police according to them have no obligation whatsoever to come to your aid if you call them requesting help if you are the victim of a crime - then I am not required to recognize their legitimacy to stop me, detain me at the scene, question me, or arrest me.
Even though I made a perfectly valid argument against said laws, you're willing to throw that out the window? I know you hate cops, but you might want to explain how it would benefit anyone to legally require law enforcement to help everyone in distress. Explain to me how this would not just clog up the court systems with thousands of lawsuits that would ultimately cause my taxes to rise exponentially so that "victims" can get their payday in court. Explain, please.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
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Say I'm a policeman and I attend a car accident. The car has smashed into a telegraph pole and there are live electric lines all around the vehicle. The injured occupants are screaming. Am I obligated to disregard my own safety and just run over to the car and risk getting killed myself? What about running into a burning house? Should the victim's family be allowed to sue me because I thought that running into a burning house would only result in another death? Say I attended a domestic while working alone and thought it prudent to wait for assistance before intervening?

The priorities of the police are as follows: SAFETY FIRST. Safety to themselves, members of the public and the suspects. In that order.

I'll be leaving the incident in the OP aside for a moment, considering I have no idea what the situation was in regard to the lack of police arival. A legal requirement for officers to 'uphold the law under any circumstances' is ridiculous. That would place a ridiculous amount of red tape on police and remove their discretion as to how they approach a given situation.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
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Yes, safety first is a good way to go, but lets be reasonable about this shall we, in both the case originally posed, and the one I posed, safety wasn't an issue, they simply didn't seem to be bothered.
 
 

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Old 09-15-2008
 
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You are judging what the police did in your case based on your own viewpoint, which I don't believe has any insight into exactly what the police did or what they were able to do.

In your case you have said that your neighbour was 'almost' assaulted and then followed home by a group of youths. What crime has been committed here? If a crime was committed where there any witnesses to verify it? Do you know exactly what the police did to investigate and how they came to take the actions that they did? If not it's rather pointless to speculate.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
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Even though I made a perfectly valid argument against said laws, you're willing to throw that out the window? I know you hate cops, but you might want to explain how it would benefit anyone to legally require law enforcement to help everyone in distress. Explain to me how this would not just clog up the court systems with thousands of lawsuits that would ultimately cause my taxes to rise exponentially so that "victims" can get their payday in court. Explain, please.
Your argument was shit, which is typical any time you talk about the police, sorry.

You also know I don't hate the police.

Your "lawsuit" argument is so bad that it is surprising that anyone intelligent would actually believe in it. The police have the power to infringe on the civil liberties of citizens because they are tasked to enforce the law. There is no justification for the police to pull my car over, or come to my house and question me about anything, or arrest me, unless it is in the process of upholding the law.

If the police are not obligated to enforce the law, then I as a citizen am under no obligation to recognize their power. Sorry Nuts try again and this time without the "you hate teh pigs!" bullshit.

Gorbet your example is bad as car accidents are not illegal (the driving leading to them may be). The officer would not be failing to enforce a law by not attempting to rescue the people in the car.

Quote:
A legal requirement for officers to 'uphold the law under any circumstances' is ridiculous. That would place a ridiculous amount of red tape on police and remove their discretion as to how they approach a given situation.
How officers resolve a situation where potential illegal activity has occurred is up to their discretion. It is, and should not be, up to their discretion whether or not to show up and resolve it at all.

The police can pick and choose which incidences of law-breaking they want to respond to, fine, I get to pick and choose which laws I want to obey. Oh wait that won't end well, silly me for assuming that justice entered into the equation anywhere.
 
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Old 09-15-2008
 
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Your argument was shit, which is typical any time you talk about the police, sorry.

You also know I don't hate the police.
You have never had a sinlge positive thing to say about the police. Should i take your word, or should I draw upon your plethora of posts that criticize law enforcment at every turn?

Quote:
Your "lawsuit" argument is so bad that it is surprising that anyone intelligent would actually believe in it.
If it's such a horrid argument, why are you unwilling to offer a rebuttal?

Quote:
The police have the power to infringe on the civil liberties of citizens because they are tasked to enforce the law. There is no justification for the police to pull my car over, or come to my house and question me about anything, or arrest me, unless it is in the process of upholding the law.
If the police have behaved improperly towards you, then I suggest taking this up with your mayor, county commission, public affairs or perhaps you might even employ the services of a good lawyer...a very close relative perhaps? I'm going to assume that you have never been treated improperly, otherwise you would have pursued one or all of these avenues long ago.

Quote:
If the police are not obligated to enforce the law, then I as a citizen am under no obligation to recognize their power. Sorry Nuts try again and this time without the "you hate teh pigs!" bullshit.
Obligation and legal requirement are quite different in their legal interpretation. An obligation would indicate that law enforcment is a job requirement and as with most jobs, employment is conditional based on that obligation. A legal requirement to lend aid would subject police to lawsuits for any and every death and injury under their watch. You say it's a ridiculous argument, yet you offer no counter argument that merits any serious consideration aside from "OMG cops suck!"

If you can demonstrate how a legal responsibility would not end up costing taxpayers millions (perhaps billions) of dollars, please put forth your ideas. Otherwise I will assume that you have none.
 
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