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Old 09-05-2008
 
#16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
No one wants your help.
This statement is incorrect. You haven't been paying attention to Iraq since the conflict began it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
They only want your weapons to keep the killing going. You're not creating democracy over there. You're promoting civilian death.
And we have an interest in keeping a military presence in the Middle East, so what's the problem? The pro-US govt of Iraq needs weapons to help stabilize the region when we finally do "pull out", and to be properly equipped against Iran exerting its influence over Iraq's eastern provinces. "killing" in general isn't the issue here. If your summary of the situation in the Middle East is "killing", its time to go pick up a book instead of attending hippie rallies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
And FYI, Nader gave you seatbelts. Thank him.
Hitler made the trains run on time. Should we thank him too?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
The consequence will be the same as staying. People will die.
But they won't be American. I thought you'd support that, guess not.
"People will die"? Is that all that matters to you? I thought you said you don't value human life?

What about how many people will die? Who will gain control of the area? Which foreign powers will be exerting their influence in our absence? What about Iran strengthening its influence in the region? What do we do about terrorist networks having a safe haven to operate in as opposed to the way things are now? Coalition and civilian casualties have consistently been declining for many months now. Throwing away these successes is just about the most retarded decision you can make.

If we leave now, Iraq could rapidly establish itself into another murderous dictatorship possibly worse than Saddam. There are many people in Iraq who cooperate with us and actively seek the establishment of a democracy. You want to abandon them? You stupid inconsiderate fuck. This will leave Israel, a close ally of ours to be forced to face a stengthened Iran and radicalized Iraq.

This will boost the morale of anti-american, anti-israeli, anti-western terrorists everywhere. There's nothing better to brag about than having "defeated" the Americans.
Instability will bleed out all over the Middle East, and Iraq's neighbors will attempt to fill in the void. The risk of war will go up dramatically. And no DS, they won't just "kill each other off", someone will come out to be the top dog. You wan't a new Islamic empire to emerge with no oversight of state sponsored terrorism?

Pulling out will make our efforts and all the resources we dedicated to the conflict truelly wasted. While we're seeing improvements in the situation now, why on earth would you wish to pull out? Our own troop's military morale will be damaged for decades to come. We have brave young men and women fighting over there for a cause they truelly believe in. Most of those who have fought over there wish to make sure that the sacrifices they made result in an Iraq that's better off than it was under Saddam.

Enough of this vague "killing will continue" bullshit. You don't know a damn thing about Middle Eastern conflicts and war in general. Go back to waving picket signs at anti war rallies, shouting "no blood for oil", playing on your guitar and xbox or playing with your oil made frisbies on campus, you dirtbag defeatist commie.
 

Last edited by H0teLVi0LeT; 09-05-2008 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 09-05-2008
 
#17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santrega View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/story//nm/2008...ighters_usa_dc



Now, I understand trying to make iraq strong again, so they can quickly become a strong ally in the middle east. But, Isn't this a little early to go giving them a ton of weapons? Look at what happened with Saddam when we gave them a ton of weaponry...
trust me, having worked on an air force base where the f-22 was used, the f-16s are not a threat to those. in war games with one f-22, it eliminated 16 f-16s.i have seen the f-22s leave with a couple of stealth fighters right behind them as well. i have seen the pilots hot dogging it across the sky in the f-22, in ways you wouldn't even think was possible, but they do it. as long as we have f-22s, the 16s aren't a threat. imo, let iraq buy some. that is more of their own security they can take up, and it is less cash we are spending on them.
 
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Old 09-05-2008
 
#18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HV
That's exactly your problem, you don't see the long term consequences of immediately "pulling out of Iraq" or for that matter Afghanistan.
Well the problem is we don't have a magic crystal ball to draw upon like the so-called "experts" you idolize (yeah, the same clowns who got us into this mess to begin with, and said they would be throwing rose petals at our feet).

We don't know what would happen if we pull for sure, but what we do know is that we wouldn't be spending hundreds of billions of dollars on Iraqis instead of Americans, that much is certain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H0teLVi0LeT View Post
This statement is incorrect. You haven't been paying attention to Iraq since the conflict began it seems.
I have and we should pull out ASAP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HV
And we have an interest in keeping a military presence in the Middle East, so what's the problem? The pro-US govt of Iraq needs weapons to help stabilize the region when we finally do "pull out", and to be properly equipped against Iran exerting its influence over Iraq's eastern provinces. "killing" in general isn't the issue here. If your summary of the situation in the Middle East is "killing", its time to go pick up a book instead of attending hippie rallies.
I've never been to a "hippy rally" and I doubt he has. If we want to increase the amount of Pro-US governments we need to stop meddling and start trading, or else we will experience what is known as "blowback," i.e. the very reason Iran is a fundamentalist, anti-US state. It's because we were fucking around in that country when we shouldn't have been.

It's in the US interest to have a non-interventionist foreign policy. A foreign policy of freedom that our Founding Fathers envisioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HV
Hitler made the trains run on time. Should we thank him too?
Because Hitler and Nader are the same person, right? Good job jackass, you've officially evoked Godwins Law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HV
"People will die"? Is that all that matters to you? I thought you said you don't value human life?
What about how many people will die? Who will gain control of the area? Which foreign powers will be exerting their influence in our absence? What about Iran strengthening its influence in the region? What do we do about terrorist networks having a safe haven to operate in as opposed to the way things are now? Coalition and civilian casualties have consistently been declining for many months now. Throwing away these successes is just about the most retarded decision you can make.[/quote]

In order of appearance....

1) No Americans, which is the main concern. We don't know for sure.
2) Who cares?
3) Who cares?
4) Who cares?
5) How do we know they will have a safe place to operate, and furthermore how do we know they will attack us as opposed to the Iraqi government? Worst comes to worst we have to bomb them.
6) No it's not, going in the first place was the most retarded decision one could possibly make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HV
If we leave now, Iraq could rapidly establish itself into another murderous dictatorship possibly worse than Saddam. There are many people in Iraq who cooperate with us and actively seek the establishment of a democracy. You want to abandon them? You stupid inconsiderate fuck. This will leave Israel, a close ally of ours to be forced to face a stengthened Iran and radicalized Iraq.
Hearsay and conjecture, the fact is we don't really know what would happen if we left. 30 years ago they were saying if we don't fight the communists in Vietnam then they would first takeover the entire Pacific, then South America, and as soon as you know it America would be run by commies. Of course that was simply warmongering scare tactics, the same that are being deployed today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HV
This will boost the morale of anti-american, anti-israeli, anti-western terrorists everywhere. There's nothing better to brag about than having "defeated" the Americans.
Instability will bleed out all over the Middle East, and Iraq's neighbors will attempt to fill in the void. The risk of war will go up dramatically. And no DS, they won't just "kill each other off", someone will come out to be the top dog. You wan't a new Islamic empire to emerge with no oversight of state sponsored terrorism?
They will have the simple option of controlling their terrorists or risk war with the United States, which of course they will choose to control their terrorists and keep them in check. If not, we go to war with them, pretty simple. This is of course assuming that you're unlikely, worst-case-scenario even plays out in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HV
Pulling out will make our efforts and all the resources we dedicated to the conflict truelly wasted. While we're seeing improvements in the situation now, why on earth would you wish to pull out? Our own troop's military morale will be damaged for decades to come. We have brave young men and women fighting over there for a cause they truelly believe in. Most of those who have fought over there wish to make sure that the sacrifices they made result in an Iraq that's better off than it was under Saddam.
According to whom? Half or more of the soldiers I talk to don't really give a shit about the situation over there. Some of them are tired of being deployed constantly, some like the extra money it brings, some think it's a pointless waste of resources, and yet others believe in the cause. But I'm simply tired of the Republican propganda machine trying to portray "the troops" in a one-dimensional image when in fact we are as dynamic and differant/unique as the rest of America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HV
Enough of this vague "killing will continue" bullshit. You don't know a damn thing about Middle Eastern conflicts and war in general. Go back to waving picket signs at anti war rallies, shouting "no blood for oil", playing on your guitar and xbox or playing with your oil made frisbies on campus, you dirtbag defeatist commie.
Yet you are simply a parrot to those same "experts" who said this would be a cakewalk over in a few months, the same clowns who got us into this mess in the first place. Why on Earth should we listen to you?
 
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Old 09-05-2008
 
#19
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Excellent. I think we should sell Iraq M1A1s and M1A2s as well. Anything they want we should sell to them basically.

And by the way Santrega when you say "me" I assume you mean the Soviet Union / Eastern bloc, France, and the United Kingdom, who altogether sold Iraq about 80% of the arms it bought in the 1980s. The USA? .25% to 1% depending on your source.

DE's still singing the same song I see. Too bad I've refuted him too many times to waste my time bringing up all the old links again.
 
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Old 09-05-2008
 
#20
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What does one have to do, to get you bastards to stay on topic? There are plenty of Iraq war threads you can insult each other in, can you guys say something about whether iraq having F16s is a good idea or not?

Oh and Chaos, feel free to cite the sources you find in that. But thanks for at least being on topic.
 
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Old 09-05-2008
 
#21
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Of course it is. Free trade! They want it, we have it, let's sell it to them. Don't you agree DE?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_sales_to_Iraq

In dollar terms, the US sold 0.5% of the weapons sold to Iraq from 1973 to 1990.

In terms of equipment the US sold Iraq about 120 helicopters about half of which were either combat aircraft or capable of being modified into combat aircraft. Comparatively, France sold Iraq 100 jet fighters, hundreds of armored fighting vehicles, and 85 self-propelled artillery guns, among other things. Communist countries sold Iraq almost 5,000 tanks, with about half of those tanks coming from China. And so on.
 

Last edited by Chaos; 09-05-2008 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 09-05-2008
 
#22
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Yes I do agree, if selling them F-16's means pulling our troops out sooner then I'm all for it. They can fight Iran or fight each other I don't really give a fuck as long as more of my brothers aren't needlessly dying in combat it's cool with me.
 
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Old 09-05-2008
 
#23
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Odd how most of your "brothers" disagree with you, though. Mysterious.
 
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Old 09-05-2008
 
#24
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
Of course it is. Free trade! They want it, we have it, let's sell it to them. Don't you agree DE?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_sales_to_Iraq

In dollar terms, the US sold 0.5% of the weapons sold to Iraq from 1973 to 1990.

In terms of equipment the US sold Iraq about 120 helicopters about half of which were either combat aircraft or capable of being modified into combat aircraft. Comparatively, France sold Iraq 100 jet fighters, hundreds of armored fighting vehicles, and 85 self-propelled artillery guns, among other things. Communist countries sold Iraq almost 5,000 tanks, with about half of those tanks coming from China. And so on.
Wow, I don't remember us running into all those tanks in Iraq, where did they go?
 
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Old 09-05-2008
 
#25
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Wow, I don't remember us running into all those tanks in Iraq, where did they go?
A lot of them were destroyed in the Iran-Iraq War. And most of the rest were destroyed in Operation Desert Thunder and then Operation Desert Storm. And after Desert Storm Saddam didn't have the money to keep more than a handful operational.
 
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Old 09-07-2008
 
#26
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Yeah why don't sell them soon to be outdated technology, strong enough for the middle east, to weak to pose any serious threat.
 
 

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Old 09-07-2008
 
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I don't see why not to sell them the planes. It's a good way to get them started. I say we give them all they need as long as we keep a tight leash. We are only making our job easier by doing this. I think the plan helps out both sides you know people wanting to get out of Iraq and those intent on staying. It will increase the Iraq force ten times over I think we can avoid selling tanks for now but selling them armored vehicles and such isn't a bad idea.
 
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Old 09-07-2008
 
#28
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What do you mean by keeping them on a leash cajunman? Restricting how much we sell or trying to dictate the use of their purchased planes?
 
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Old 09-07-2008
 
#29
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I mean the difference between giving them F-16s and giving them equipment that rivals us. Like what we are equiped with I don't believe its smart to give them too much. We can give them stuff but not an excess know what I mean. I ment that we have to keep everything they recieve and what we give close and in mind. We don't want what happened last time. I think tighter restrictions wouldn't be bad and supervising everything too.

I really think everything that happens in the furture is all on us and we have to be careful.
 
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Old 09-08-2008
 
#30
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Odd how most of your "brothers" disagree with you, though. Mysterious.
Prove it.
 
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