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Old 08-21-2008
 
#16
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Originally Posted by Nuts View Post
A cell phone is a choice and one that can be turned off at any moment. I'll concede that you suggested the idea of an on/off switch, but I wonder if that's even possible given that RFID chips are quite tiny. Besides, doesn't a GPS unit have to be exposed to the open air? I think it does.
Yes, GPS usually only works outside of buildings and not underground, However your cell phone doesn't have to have GPS in order for its location to be tracked. Cell phone towers are regularly used to triangulate the location of a cell phone. As has been pointed out though, this is a voluntary submission to being tracked.

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Originally Posted by Neo View Post
However it makes me wonder why specifically so many are against the chips just out of some fear of being "tracked be them" -- what specifically are you doing that is so private?
Besides the losing-a-right-is-a-slippery-slope argument Traken put forth, to directly answer your question there are countless reasons someone would not want to be tracked. I will explain the general ones that are easiest to understand.

We all do things in private that we wouldn't do in public. Or, have you ever omitted the truth in a conversation with someone? Sure you have. We can conclude that there are obviously some basic, legitimate reasons why you would want to hide information from someone.

What if you as an individual are engaging in legal but, depending on who holds the information, reproachable behavior? What if you are a tandem skydiver (you take other people on skydives strapped to you) but you don't pack your own chute? What if you are a doctor who recommends a certain specialist but visits a different one for his own personal needs? What if you are a celebrity with certain favorite hiding spots, trying to avoid the paparazzi? What if you don't want your wife to find out you have a huge fortune and visit the Caymans every other weekend? What if you are an executive for a major corporation with thousands of workers depending on you to run a successful business, but this information would reveal trade secrets and hurt your competitive advantage?

The idea that there is no problem here since this information would only be available after a warrant is issued is very ill-conceived. Firstly, we already know that the federal government has no qualms about warrantless wiretapping. Now the Department of Justice is about to give the FBI powers to open a national security or criminal investigation against someone without even any clear basis for suspicion. Our government does not have a good track record of using warrants to uphold a person's rights.

Furthermore, even if a warrant is issued , that only confirms suspicion or reasonable cause, not guilt, and in the course of an investigation and a trial all this information is made public - since this is a public investigation and trial, it is not held in confidence - creating the potential for great, unwarranted harm (some of which I described above).


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Old 08-21-2008
 
#17
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Originally Posted by GenocideAlive View Post
Convicts already wear them. It won't be up for discussion until the chips can be made smaller. At that point, however, it'll only be a matter of time before everyone is chipped. I'm certainly against being chipped, because I don't think the security is worth the privacy. But the government won't care, and that will be that. They have guns and a military, and you don't. Might makes right, oh well.
You're right. You shouldn't fight against something that you feel so strongly against because "they" have guns and a military. Oh well.

Seriously, what the fuck happened to my generation? You're all a fucking bunch of whimps. STAND THE FUCK UP FOR YOURSELF! Get off your ass, and fight for what you believe in. Get media, get propaganda, get people on your side, find people on your side, get guns get a military start a revolution if you have to. Tear the walls down brick by brick till your hands are bare and bloody and don't stop till the job is done. I'm utterly disgusted by this attitude i see everywhere in my generation. We've given up BEFORE there even was a battle. WHAT THE FUCK? Generation, grow a fucking spine. (This wasn't specificly at you GA, but I have to use your whining as an example to justify my anger against everyone in my generation). At some point we confused being alive with living. Where did we go wrong? I see this attitude everywhere "this sucks... oh well. I'll swallow some more." How much shit are you guys going to eat before more of you stand up? They have guns and a military??? MAN UP.
[/rant]

[rant2]
Also, all nazi refrences are valid. We seem to have this idea in our heads that we're incapable of being nazis-- and it's all because of that whole "Jew thing" that happened. Lets face it, if the nazis never set up camps to kill the jews, blacks, and gypsies... they would never have been nearly as infamous. Just because the nazis killed people, doesn't mean that their V2 rockets are an unrealistic thing for other people to try and do. Yes, nazis were bad. They wouldn't be any worse than Napoleon's guys if they didn't do the whole mass execution song and dance.
[/rant]

Now then....
The biggest problem is rights are flat out ignored. If I don't want a tracking chip in the base of my balls, that should be damn well good enough reason. We are not beasts. We are men.

We have better ways to ensure we don't have harm come to our children with better social outcomes than tagging them... for example, you could... raise your children! And strangers could take accountability for the well being of a child who seems to be in harms way. How about we spend that million billion dollars on the "lets look after our kids" program instead?

In terms of ID, we already have that through biometrics. There's no reason I should be unable to pass my hand over something, or look into the camera on my way out of a store to debit my account for the goods I walk out of the store with. In this case, I have chosen to be identified. This is the heart of the argument. A tracking chip strips away any shred of privacy you ever had. This must be debated in the philosophy of privacy, and what it's value to humanity is. We can go there, if you want to.
 
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Old 08-22-2008
 
#18
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Why do we talk about something that isn't going to happen here for a long time? That probably most definitely won't happen here in our lifetimes?

Anyone who would forcibly insert a chip in an innocent person without consent is an asshole. You should not be so self-absorbed as to why I shouldn't just go along with your plan. And something like that is not worth talking about. Sure, it would work if everyone went along with it. But so would a world where we all had sex with my little ponies.
 
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Old 08-22-2008
 
#19
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Originally Posted by Deidara View Post
Why do we talk about something that isn't going to happen here for a long time? That probably most definitely won't happen here in our lifetimes?

Anyone who would forcibly insert a chip in an innocent person without consent is an asshole. You should not be so self-absorbed as to why I shouldn't just go along with your plan. And something like that is not worth talking about. Sure, it would work if everyone went along with it. But so would a world where we all had sex with my little ponies.
It won't happen forcibly in the sense that you imagine. It will start with some tragic even that will strike at the hearts of parents everywhere, then a Senator will propose a bill that chips every child at birth so that this "NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN!"

It's all downhill from there.
 
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Old 08-22-2008
 
#20
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Originally Posted by Nuts View Post
A cell phone is a choice and one that can be turned off at any moment. I'll concede that you suggested the idea of an on/off switch, but I wonder if that's even possible given that RFID chips are quite tiny. Besides, doesn't a GPS unit have to be exposed to the open air? I think it does.
Actually I would be hoping for something better then an RFID, seeing as inherently insecure these things are (has anyone caught the recent MIT student thing?) -- rather I would hope for something a bit better.

My point was more that cells are so prevalent in our culture now, and they can be used to call for help -- or even in extreme emergencies track the owner to get them help.

Quote:
Your child could be locked up in a cage and let out only for meals and play time. They would absolutely be safer than if they were allowed to wander alone. Or we could mandate bullet proof vests for our school children to protect them from school shootings. Or how about raising the driving age to 18 so that no minor can ever get behind the wheel, thus reducing teen accidents. How about an 8pm curfew for everyone under the age of 18? This would eliminate the troublesome times when teens get hurt or killed due to careless juvenile behavior.
This is sort of on the extreme end of the spectrum though. What I would be suggesting would be more then just a "tracking chip" -- in fact it doesn't really even have to be that at all. The idea of having your house or car respond to your presence seems like it would be, well, cool.

Quote:
There are hundreds of ways we can protect our children, and each of them has a consequence. The problem presented with the implanted chip is that you fail to see the "big picture" in the same fashion that others might. Some of us don't completely trust the fail safes that you have suggested. Anyone that thinks a warrant is free from corruption should think twice.
That's where the argument lies then. No one should be given this amount of responsibility, but then at the same time to not even attempt it because of some nebulous and vague "they" who might be up to evil things seems awfully foolhardy.

What if, instead of a central authority having access, that these are something that people decide on and control themselves? EG: Rather then having this being tracked by some agency, it was something more personal, coded to your specific password, or ID, off your own computer or whatever.

Then if something disastrous does happen, a relative or friend you've trusted would have the ability to 'login' and find you or something. Sort of like the way most jobs/schools/etc... will ask that you provide a second or third emergency contact.

Most of you seem to be completely missing the point at all. This is a freaking discussion on a possible -- theoretical topic -- in what amounts to, a fantasy world. In this day and age would I support something like this? Probably not. I'm not an idiot.

But you all seem to be focusing on "omg Nazis, omg Privacy" -- Which is fine. I get it, I don't think I'd like to be tracked either against my will, but no where did I indicate we should forcibly insert tags/chips in a person.

Nuts went to the extreme end of an example in regards to children. While locking the min a cage would keep them safe, that isn't healthy. But neither is having such an extreme hold on them that they feel stifled. The idea of being able to let them "live their own life" (as it were), but at the same time being able to keep track of them. For instance if your kid stays longer at a friends house and forgets to call you -- which happens I'm sure more often then not -- you'd be able to just check and see they are still there.

But still that sort of ability could be abused no doubt.

So instead of a tag or chip within a persons body -- what about something like a personal Cell Phone like device (more akin to a smart phone/iphone etc... that does more then just make calls) coded specifically to them (so stealing it is pointless). You could maintain control of any GPS capability, but it would still be their in an emergency.

Plus everything else I suggested -- the elimination of keys for instance (how many of you misplaced them at one point or another) -- would still be possible. Though you'd have to manage to keep track of the one device (but again if it had a GPS-similar ability you could just login to your computer and click on "Where is it?" and it would show you).

I wasn't really trying to ignite a discussion on privacy, rather the technological implications. Everyone has discussed this topic to death in regards to privacy concerns, so I was hoping for something a bit different.

-Neo
 
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Old 08-22-2008
 
#21
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Neo, aside from privacy, I doubt anyone would have any objection. You're looking for an alternative discussion on the issue, but it's a moot point because aside from privacy concerns, the benefits are indeed quite positive.

I guess we could all say "yes, in a perfect world where corruption is not present and technology cannot be hacked, yes, GPS locators would be pretty neato."

I'm not sure what more can be said?
 

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Old 08-22-2008
 
#22
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Originally Posted by Neo
I wasn't really trying to ignite a discussion on privacy, rather the technological implications. Everyone has discussed this topic to death in regards to privacy concerns, so I was hoping for something a bit different.
Well the privacy problem is the paramount issue here, our ability to tell little white lies would be severly compromised if for instance your spouse, your parents could track your whereabouts.

On the technological side, I find the idea interesting on the basis that when I come home I would like the temperature to be set to room temperature, coffee to be made, lights to go on etc. I believe Bill Gates has constructed a similar house. However for tracking each others whereabouts it never should be used, social relations would deteriorate.
 
 

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Old 08-22-2008
 
#23
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Originally Posted by Nuts View Post
Neo, aside from privacy, I doubt anyone would have any objection. You're looking for an alternative discussion on the issue, but it's a moot point because aside from privacy concerns, the benefits are indeed quite positive.

I guess we could all say "yes, in a perfect world where corruption is not present and technology cannot be hacked, yes, GPS locators would be pretty neato."

I'm not sure what more can be said?
You keep jumping to either extreme here!

I was simply looking for discussion, nothing more. If you feel the need to discuss the privacy concerns, because to you they outweigh everything else, then thats fine to. It's "SD" not "Neo's little domain of Facism" or something.

I'm a geek. The technological applications to me are fascinating. I suppose it was unfair of me to expect others to feel the same, heh.

Privacy concerns are a huge issue... but then they were when cell phones were released, and some people still think GPS locaters are a bad idea. The idea, I suppose, would be to find a comprimise between the tin foil wearing conspiracy nuts, the privacy advocated, and the average person who doesn't really care.

Hell that's why people get so up in arms when a program "calls home" on a computer, even if it's something as innocuous as an update check, or to let "home" know to increase the install count by one.

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Old 08-22-2008
 
#24
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Originally Posted by Neo View Post
This is sort of on the extreme end of the spectrum though. What I would be suggesting would be more then just a "tracking chip" -- in fact it doesn't really even have to be that at all. The idea of having your house or car respond to your presence seems like it would be, well, cool.
We already have this. Most cars manufactured in this century have transponders in the keys that send a radio signal to the engine that you can't unlock or start the car without. (The side effect of this is that replacements for lost keys cost $50 instead of 50 cents)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
The idea, I suppose, would be to find a comprimise between the tin foil wearing conspiracy nuts, the privacy advocated, and the average person who doesn't really care.
Yeah it's called the free market.
 
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Old 08-22-2008
 
#25
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But the idea would be to have a device -- embedded or not -- that would negate the need for keys at all.

Get near the car, it unlocks. Get in it, it starts.

-Neo
 
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Old 08-22-2008
 
#26
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Originally Posted by Neo View Post
But the idea would be to have a device -- embedded or not -- that would negate the need for keys at all.

Get near the car, it unlocks. Get in it, it starts.

-Neo
I may be mistaken, but I believe Mercedes or a brand like that has a key/transponder that does indeed unlock the car as you approach, or something like that.
 
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Old 08-22-2008
 
#27
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Originally Posted by Neo View Post
But the idea would be to have a device -- embedded or not -- that would negate the need for keys at all.

Get near the car, it unlocks. Get in it, it starts.

-Neo
We have that too, the little button-pushers. Probably there's an automatic thing out there too. Having something automatic as you describe could be pretty unsafe though. Imagine a mugger or carjacker waiting out of sight for your car to unlock and start...just goes to show you there are a lot of unintended consequences of these "cool" things you are talking about.

We don't live in a video game world designed by developers who work out all the bugs beforehand, and where the only stuff that happens is the stuff you want to happen. We live in a chaotic world, whose developers (lawmakers) are notoriously horrible at designing shit to produce intended consequences.
 

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Old 08-22-2008
 
#28
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Originally Posted by Traken View Post
I may be mistaken, but I believe Mercedes or a brand like that has a key/transponder that does indeed unlock the car as you approach, or something like that.
My G37 does not require a key for anything. I can open the doors, trunk and start the engine all without ever holding the keys. I must be within 2 ft of the driver's side for this to work.
 
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Old 08-22-2008
 
#29
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Originally Posted by Neo View Post
This is sort of on the extreme end of the spectrum though. What I would be suggesting would be more then just a "tracking chip" -- in fact it doesn't really even have to be that at all. The idea of having your house or car respond to your presence seems like it would be, well, cool.
If you think it's so "cool" then install it in yourself and leave the rest of us out of your tyrannical and despotic plans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo
That's where the argument lies then. No one should be given this amount of responsibility, but then at the same time to not even attempt it because of some nebulous and vague "they" who might be up to evil things seems awfully foolhardy.
Yeah, just like it's foolhardy to have police around to protect us from these nebulous and vague "criminals" who might be up to evil things. It seems awfully foolhardy for countries to have a military too, protecting us from these nebulous and vague "enemies." Whats also foolhardy is to have a constitution and rights that protect us from these vague and nebulous "tyrants," we should get rid of the constitution because we have not yet identified these tyrants therefore they don't exist.

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Originally Posted by Neo
What if, instead of a central authority having access, that these are something that people decide on and control themselves? EG: Rather then having this being tracked by some agency, it was something more personal, coded to your specific password, or ID, off your own computer or whatever.

Then if something disastrous does happen, a relative or friend you've trusted would have the ability to 'login' and find you or something. Sort of like the way most jobs/schools/etc... will ask that you provide a second or third emergency contact.
Then Neo can install this cell phone or chip and the rest of us can live our lives free from his tyrrany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo
Most of you seem to be completely missing the point at all. This is a freaking discussion on a possible -- theoretical topic -- in what amounts to, a fantasy world. In this day and age would I support something like this? Probably not. I'm not an idiot.

But you all seem to be focusing on "omg Nazis, omg Privacy" -- Which is fine. I get it, I don't think I'd like to be tracked either against my will, but no where did I indicate we should forcibly insert tags/chips in a person.
No you said things like:

"If we tagged every child that was born, no children would ever go missing again. It would be difficult to kidnap a child with a tag/chip in them that could be tracked regardless of where you go.

To me that single benefit out weighs any possible negatives."

Thats very scary to the rest of us listening to what you're saying, as that sounds awfully like the same scumbag tyrants who would push this kind of legislation into law. Tell me how exactly do you plan to plant a chip in every child but get their permission first? The fact is, you are a tyrant, and do want to go beyond what you're claiming now, just like the tyrants (politicians) who would try to sell this idea to the public.

"ITS FOR THE KIDS."
"FOR YOUR PROTECTION."
"ADDED SECURITY."
"FOR YOUR SAFETY."
"VOLUNTARY."

Then it goes to every child needs it for their own safety, and thus everyone has a chip in them, because you forced them to have one. But thats not the idea you originally marketed. Nope!

Neo, this is why people don't trust tyrants with their soothsaying and sneaky ways, because we can see past their deceptions and lies and recognize the inherent danger in trusting such people like you with power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo
Plus everything else I suggested -- the elimination of keys for instance (how many of you misplaced them at one point or another) -- would still be possible. Though you'd have to manage to keep track of the one device (but again if it had a GPS-similar ability you could just login to your computer and click on "Where is it?" and it would show you).
So what happens when the electricity goes off or you lose signal because of distortion or interferance, or the batteries die, you're just fucked?

[quote=NeoI wasn't really trying to ignite a discussion on privacy, rather the technological implications. Everyone has discussed this topic to death in regards to privacy concerns, so I was hoping for something a bit different.[/QUOTE]

Of course we did, that's the main concern here. You were talking about forcing everyone to implant chips into their bodies for some alleged "security purpose" and we rightly pointed out the Naziesque manner in which you were trying to sell that idea.
 
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Old 08-22-2008
 
#30
BlizzForums Neo
Boo!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,110
 Neo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulzNeo did it for teh lulz
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Wow DE, way to fucking overreact. I didn't -- I don't -- put forward that we should force anyone to do anything. For fuck's sake man, I was talking about the technology involved and possible benefits. If you and others want to harp on and on about the privacy aspect then go ahead, but don't make me out to be some kind of tyrant for even bringing it up.

Nuts that was sorta was I was getting at, except in a more accessible form to the average person (eg: cheap and efficient).

Pizza while mugging would be a concern I would take it a step further, like with a car coded to your DNA, or one that simply refuses to turn on if it detects someone else within range. Or make it useless to steal a car, or mug someone. It becomes pretty pointless to mug someone, say, for this personal mobile "key/wallet/etc..." combo device if it wont work for anyone but it's owner and take into account a car that would be similar, even going so far as to self-immolate certain key circuits and components.

Ideas. Theories. That's all this is.

EDIT: I also apologize for trying to use SD as a sounding board, didn't realize it would put so many people out of joint. It was just a thought after all. Nothing I would propose today or even tomorrow even if I was in a position to do so.

-Neo
 
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