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Old 08-20-2008
 
#16
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Originally Posted by Santrega View Post
It isn't anything like that.. People don't know that they have alcoholism in their genes.

For example, I could have two parents that never took a drink, yet if they had would have become alcoholics, so I don't know that I shouldn't drink.

If they tested for this at child birth for example, they could do more to prevent it. However, there isn't a test done for people, so how are they suppose to know they shouldn't drink?
They can't. But addictions are not unbeatable. If you're unlucky enough to have the predispostion, and then drink and get addicted, it is your responsibility to seek help, no one elses.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
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They can't. But addictions are not unbeatable. If you're unlucky enough to have the predispostion, and then drink and get addicted, it is your responsibility to seek help, no one elses.
lol, if it was that easy to seek help, my sister for example wouldn't have denied for the last 10 years that she was an alcoholic.

They don't think they need to drink, they just think they want to. They don't realize its a problem until its way too late to do anything about it...

10 years is one hell of a habit to break, and a kid getting an early start isn't better for society. While it is up to them, alcoholism sinks you deeper and deeper into a hole, that is harder to get out of the further you go in, the same as any addiction. My uncle will die because of alcoholism, but he tried to get help, and was put on a waiting list, eventually he gave up on help and currently drinks a fifth of vodka every day... until he runs out of money...

Help isn't easily available for people in terms of alcoholism, and gambling in which my mother had a problem with...

Help just isn't there, and since it isn't there, more needs to be done.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
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lol, if it was that easy to seek help, my sister for example wouldn't have denied for the last 10 years that she was an alcoholic.

They don't think they need to drink, they just think they want to. They don't realize its a problem until its way too late to do anything about it...

10 years is one hell of a habit to break, and a kid getting an early start isn't better for society. While it is up to them, alcoholism sinks you deeper and deeper into a hole, that is harder to get out of the further you go in, the same as any addiction. My uncle will die because of alcoholism, but he tried to get help, and was put on a waiting list, eventually he gave up on help and currently drinks a fifth of vodka every day... until he runs out of money...

Help isn't easily available for people in terms of alcoholism, and gambling in which my mother had a problem with...

Help just isn't there, and since it isn't there, more needs to be done.
Help is fucking everywhere. I've had 6 friends go to AA and come out fine. If you deny your addiction, that's your problem. You are responsible for your own life. If you lack willpower, then too bad for you.

And did you ever hold an intervention for your sister? If not you can stfu right now.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
#19
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If it didn't make people happy, and wasn't a strong economic quality, then I'd say no. But it does, and is, and you're wrong.
Killing makes murderers happy, Should we allow this? Raping makes rapists happy, is that okay too? I know this is extreme, but the point is, things that make you happy aren't necessarily good.

Alcohol would still have economic value with reduction of alcohol content, and in fact, would not likely be hurt too much by it.

However, if you are an alcohol company that makes money Purely on alcohol content, and not on any other quality of the product, such as smoothness, taste, after taste, etc. Well, then I don't have much sympathy for you, because you want to feed off other people's addiction.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
#20
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I never said that it would curb alcoholism, but I am saying it will curb the damage done from alcoholism. It wasn't my lack of knowledge which caused you to say that, it was your assumption that you knew what I meant, rather than asking me what I meant.



Could you please tell me what recovering alcoholics have to do with anything I said?

It's common sense here, here is what would happen:

Event - All alcohol is lowered to 6% or less alcohol content

1 - Alcoholics will now have to spend a lot more money to get completely wasted/drunk in order to consume the same amount of alcohol they could have gotten in one small bottle.
2 - Alcoholics will have to work harder to get the alcohol, buying in bulk, constantly going back and forth to the store.
3 - Teens would lose their attraction for alcohol, as a quick alcohol fix is no longer available.
4- Adults 18-20 would be able to drink at a bar with friends, not having to worry about the age limits..

There are also many other disadvantages that come with beer for example, hang overs, and beer belly for example. That'd be very unappealing to most teens.
Are you twelve years old? Every time you keep posting, you just display more and more of your lack of understanding of these basic problems. If you think that beer is the only beverage that gives you a hangover, or weight gain, I'm not sure it's even worth arguing with you.

Capping ABV will do absolutely nothing to the effect of making people spend more money "to get their fix" since the cheapest alcohol on the market today is malt liquor, which is about $2 for 40oz at 6% ABV.

Constantly going back and forth to the store? I hope I don't have to show you how dumb this argument is.

And obviously you aren't aware that the reason teens drink is not to get a "quick alcohol fix." The primary reason they drink is because it is illicit, hard to get, and has an adult mystique around it.



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Old 08-20-2008
 
#21
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Are you twelve years old? Every time you keep posting, you just display more and more of your lack of understanding of these basic problems. If you think that beer is the only beverage that gives you a hangover, or weight gain, I'm not sure it's even worth arguing with you.

Capping ABV will do absolutely nothing to the effect of making people spend more money "to get their fix" since the cheapest alcohol on the market today is malt liquor, which is about $2 for 40oz at 6% ABV.

Constantly going back and forth to the store? I hope I don't have to show you how dumb this argument is.

And obviously you aren't aware that the reason teens drink is not to get a "quick alcohol fix." The primary reason they drink is because it is illicit, hard to get, and has an adult mystique around it.



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Wow you are a regular politician aren't you. I particularly like how you twist everything I say to fit a set impression you have of me... I didn't say beer is the only beverage that gives you a hang over, nor did I say that the only reasons a teen drinks is to get a quick fix.

I listed a couple of things, and apparently I have to be completely fucking flawless in my responses to you, otherwise you will twist everything I say and add to my argument as if you somehow can read my mind.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
#22
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What I find funny here is Santrega seems to lack the ability to comprehend the idea that a person is responsible for their own actions and no one else.
It seems to me you're tying to say 'beer made me do it' is a valid argument.
You get a problem with alcohol, then it's your responsibility to control yourself.
Almost any idiot can do it. If you can't hold your liquor, don't drink. A child of four could tell you that.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
#23
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What I find funny here is Santrega seems to lack the ability to comprehend the idea that a person is responsible for their own actions and no one else.
It seems to me you're tying to say 'beer made me do it' is a valid argument.
You get a problem with alcohol, then it's your responsibility to control yourself.
Almost any idiot can do it. If you can't hold your liquor, don't drink. A child of four could tell you that.
Okay, fine.

So you think it would be a good idea to just remove the legal drinking age, and legalize all drugs then? Obviously if alcohol is not responsible for anything people do, neither are drugs. Additionally, what do you need a legal drinking age for, if everyone can easily make the right decision, apparently.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
#24
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Nice strawman, bravo. How clever of you to try to debunk something I never said.

I'm fine with the drinking age where it is, and the only drug I'd legalize is pot, albeit under heavy, heavy, regulation.

You do make a good point about drugs though- If a person gets themselves addicted to coke, it's their own fault. Seeing as how getting hooked on something
like that is a moron's choice, you seem to agree with me here. Under the influence should not be a valid defense.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
#25
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Nice strawman, bravo. How clever of you to try to debunk something I never said.

I'm fine with the drinking age where it is, and the only drug I'd legalize is pot, albeit under heavy, heavy, regulation.

You do make a good point about drugs though- If a person gets themselves addicted to coke, it's their own fault. Seeing as how getting hooked on something
like that is a moron's choice, you seem to agree with me here. Under the influence should not be a valid defense.
I do agree with you there.. I don't however, agree with the fact that its always a persons fault if they are addicted to alcohol. As far as I know, there is no genetic link to drugs. There is a genetic link to alcoholism. Saying that its a person's own fault they are addicted to alcohol when its a genetic flaw, is like saying its a mentally retarded childs fault he can't do all the things we can do, and therefore should not have laws protecting him or her.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
#26
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Santrega chill out. You seem to be taking this far to personally.

The rest of you stop spamming. I cleaned the thread up rather then closing it, so try not to shit all over it again.

Santrega -- I don't understand where you're coming from. My father was an alcoholic, however he fought it and has been sober for almost a decade or longer now. I think DSquid is just saying that a person is responsible to for their own actions.

Maybe I'm also an alcoholic. However knowing what I know about my father -- and others in my family -- I've chosen not to drink. Just so I don't even risk it. You seem to be claiming that because someone my be genetically predisposed to love alcohol that if they get hooked on the stuff is somehow "not their fault" -- However if you come from a family where alcoholism is common, or where a direct parent is an alcoholic, then you've got to be ten kinds of stupid to start drinking.

I don't think anyone is claiming that alcoholism isn't real or anything. Just that with the proper support -- and the will -- you can break the addiction.

For my father it happened when I stopped speaking to him. It shocked him out of denial.

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Last edited by Neo; 08-20-2008 at 06:22 PM. Reason: wtf, "get spamming?" Freudian slip fuck.
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Old 08-20-2008
 
#27
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You guys don't seem to understand that there are two separate addictions to alcohol. There is an addiction to alcohol due to your body thinking it needs it, and isn't able to function well without it. There is also an addiction to alcohol that is purely habitual.

If you drink every day for the next 4 months and do not have alcoholism in your genes, you would become habitually addicted. A habit is far easier to break than a need. Cocaine makes your body believe you need it, which is why its so extremely addictive for people. The same is the case for an individual with alcoholism in his or her genes.

Yes, some people in some cases are able to stop. I don't deny that its possible to quit, only that many aren't able, for whatever reasons. As I said though Neo, some people may not have signs of genetic alcoholism. Adoption, death of parents, parents drink every day, but don't get drunk, or possibly their parents do not drink, because they chose not to. There's also a chance your great grand parents may have the gene, and it skipped a generation or two. There are many genetic diseases and disorders that do this on a regular basis.

Additionally, Life events drive people in to drinking and drug use. These people are especially susceptible to becoming habitual alcoholics, because they are running away from whatever is in their lives. Kids drink because of their parents beating them, adults drink because their job sucks, or they need alcohol in order to stay comfortable in situations that may normally make them uncomfortable.

If the only reason to drink is to get drunk, as someone said previously... What really is the point?

Running away from your problems or events in a day aren't better for you than facing them. Learning to cope with things without alcohol is far better than, drowning your sorrows in a bottle...even though drinking is easier.
 

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Old 08-20-2008
 
#28
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What I find funny here is Santrega seems to lack the ability to comprehend the idea that a person is responsible for their own actions and no one else.
It seems to me you're tying to say 'beer made me do it' is a valid argument.
You get a problem with alcohol, then it's your responsibility to control yourself.
Almost any idiot can do it. If you can't hold your liquor, don't drink. A child of four could tell you that.
While it is my position that the drinking age should be lowered or even abolished, and while I disagree with a lot of what Santrega has been saying, when I see so many people in this thread arguing against him using some kind of "it's your own choice," personal responsibility type of argument, I have to step in and put some sense back into this thread.

I respectfully acknowledge everyone's indirect experience with alcoholism. I also have seen close friends and family develop alcoholism, some who recovered and some who did not, even choosing to kill themselves. Yours truly has been to counseling, AA meetings and NA meetings for substance abuse. I am not an expert though, and can only speak from my own education and experience.

Your ability to "hold your liquor" has nothing to do with alcoholism. An alcoholic wakes up in the morning and needs a beer. He does not drink to feel drunk, he drinks to feel satisfied, as his body has developed a physical need more intense than the need for food.

While genetics, environment and other outside pressures can influence your fall into alcoholism, ultimately you choose your own destiny based on the actions you take. Still, an alcoholic cannot recover on his own. We should not necessarily rely on the law to stop people from making their own choices, but an alcoholic needs family and friendly support to recover. Usually there is a codependent relationship with a spouse or significant other involved who enables the addictive behavior. To throw him aside and show no pity is an extremely inhumane thing to do and there's no way that he will ever help himself out of his addiction. It requires intense willpower, and a change of personal attitude and environment, but it's not a completely bootstraps process.

Alcoholism creates great social problems beyond just the individual as I'm sure everyone knows. If you want to talk about using the law to correct these externalities then do that. If you think the government shouldn't be responsible for policing the personal choices of its citizens, that's fine too. But to say that alcoholics don;t deserve any pity or don't need any help from anyone at all is just wrong.


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Old 08-20-2008
 
#29
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Alcoholism creates great social problems beyond just the individual as I'm sure everyone knows. If you want to talk about using the law to correct these externalities then do that. If you think the government shouldn't be responsible for policing the personal choices of its citizens, that's fine too. But to say that alcoholics don;t deserve any pity or don't need any help from anyone at all is just wrong.

The bottom line I'm trying to point out here is for a recovery to begin, the alcoholic must realize he has a problem himself, and ask for help. Such help most certainly exists, but no one can make them accept it. Realizing their problem and doing something about it ultimately rests with them.
 
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Old 08-20-2008
 
#30
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I've already made my point and the vast majority of people in this world agree with me. You haven't even made a point in fact, since all of your "arguments" have been thoroughly discredited.
 
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