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Old 10-08-2007
 
#16
United States Chaos
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

My what a lively, interesting, and enlightening discussion we have here in Nuts' compromise! That was sarcasm by the way, Nuts can't moderate his way out of a paper bag. Destroyed a very active thread and replaced it with a morgue, deletes Tim-and-Carl's very relevant post - Nuts has admitted in the past, by the way, that he simply doesn't care if people lie about what other people said - the easiest and most sure way to derail a thread into flaming and general assery - because it's not quite flaming or flamebaiting, we members are supposed to just "deal with it" when faced with such obvious trolling.

Quote:
Giuliani was laughing before Paul had a chance to respond. He was not laughing at him gettiing worked up, he was laughing because he knew the questions were horribly loaded against Paul and Paul's idealogies of limited government seem absurd to him.
How were these questions horribly loaded against Paul? How can a question be horribly loaded against the One True Ideology (TM)?

Quote:
He does not always yell. You also realize Paul often has to be loud because whenever he speaks either everyone is cheering or booing, and because his message is so different than the rest of canidates he has to make it clear to the listeners.
So... if your message is unclear, the best way to fix that is to say it louder.

No wonder Ron Paul is the 4% Candidate!

Quote:
So, you'd prefer liars for president. Amazing. God forbid a Presidential canidate is enthusiastic about freedom and liberty.
What an ugly and unpatriotic comment, typical of Ron Paul supporters, seizing for themselves sole ownership of patriotism and love of liberty, consigning anyone not in lockstep with them to moral damnation. This is precisely what they have condemned "neocons" for allegedly doing for going on seven years, and is directly contradictory to their professed love for individual liberty. It is authoritarian at best. I can only hope that Ron Paul does not share the same intolerance for dissent that his supporters do.

What a boring and generally crappy place this forum is, from the moderator of it right on down to me.
 

Last edited by Chaos; 10-08-2007 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 10-08-2007
 
#17
United States Grog
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Quote:
How were these questions horribly loaded against Paul? How can a question be horribly loaded against the One True Ideology (TM)?
By being presumptuous in their questions, misquoting him, and being flat our rude when responding (laughing). Disagree with someone or not, this not a professional way to treat anyone during a debate. You wouldn't understand, seeing as how incredibly rude you are to even your fellow peers.

Quote:
So... if your message is unclear, the best way to fix that is to say it louder.

No wonder Ron Paul is the 4% Candidate!
When he gets loud is everyone is either booing and/or cheering. When he is otherwise speaking he is not loud. He does have to be very clear on his words because they are substantially differnt than the others and he has to make sure it cannot be misinterpreted.

Quote:
What an ugly and unpatriotic comment, typical of Ron Paul supporters, seizing for themselves sole ownership of patriotism and love of liberty, consigning anyone not in lockstep with them to moral damnation.
I can honestly say none of the other canidates genuinely have the love and understanding for liberty that Paul has. I'm not saying they are all little Stalins, I just believe they misunderstand what true liberty is. The comment was especially appropiate considering the poster characterized the other canidates are two-faced liars.

Quote:
It is authoritarian at best. I can only hope that Ron Paul does not share the same intolerance for dissent that his supporters do.
You have no room to talk about intolerance. It is amazing how incredibly intolerant you are of a person who's only disagreeance with would be foreign policy.

Quote:
What a boring and generally crappy place this forum is, from the moderator of it right on down to me.

Get off your high horse and shut up.
Quit bitching and just leave. Nobody will shed a tear.
 

Last edited by Grog; 10-08-2007 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 10-08-2007
 
#18
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

I support Ron Paul, mainly because of his support for abolishing the central banking system, though there are many other issues I agree with him on. He is right on some things on foreign policy and on others he is mistaken, imo. However, foreign policy at this time is not my vote-moving issue. I think he is great on any domestic policy you can think of, and that, in general, his foreign policy at this time would move us in the right direction.

However, abolishing the fed would vastly reduce the size of American government, end the problem of inflation, and usher in vastly improved economic growth in the United States. I cannot in good conscience vote for a candidate that does not support doing away with it, when one that does is running.

As for the issue of Ron Paul's supporters I have no opinion. I am sure a lot of loons like him, just as a lot of loons like any candidate. I will vote for the candidate I like.
 
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Old 10-08-2007
 
#19
United States Grog
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
He is right on some things on foreign policy and on others he is mistaken, imo. .
Could you go into specifics? Not bashing, I'd just like to hear your opinion
 
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Old 10-08-2007
 
#20
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

I'm a little skeptical of the claim that the reason Al Qaeda attacked us was solely because of our intervention in the region. Yes, I agree that our intervention is not helping. However, Al Qaeda are religious fanatics who honestly believe that the west should be destroyed. No, the average Arab does not hate us "Because of our freedom". But yes, the average member of Al Qaeda does. One of the reasons they want to destroy us is because they want to destroy the west in general and we are the west's preeminent power. In policy this doesn't translate into a ton of differences between Ron Paul and I, but I think he is wrong about it.
 
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Old 10-08-2007
 
#21
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
I'm a little skeptical of the claim that the reason Al Qaeda attacked us was solely because of our intervention in the region. Yes, I agree that our intervention is not helping. However, Al Qaeda are religious fanatics who honestly believe that the west should be destroyed. No, the average Arab does not hate us "Because of our freedom". But yes, the average member of Al Qaeda does. One of the reasons they want to destroy us is because they want to destroy the west in general and we are the west's preeminent power. In policy this doesn't translate into a ton of differences between Ron Paul and I, but I think he is wrong about it.
I think I could generally agree with that, and I think that's basically his position too. I don't think he's said that interventionism is the only reason. He has cited several times that that is why he believes they get the recruits and funds they do, which would lead me to assume that he think's they are religious fanatics that do hate the West. Since he mentions recruiting often, I'd have to assume he's saying they would have little support or funding without interventionism, not cease to exist period.
 

Last edited by Grog; 10-08-2007 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 10-09-2007
 
#22
United States Chaos
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Quote:
By being presumptuous in their questions, misquoting him, and being flat our rude when responding (laughing). Disagree with someone or not, this not a professional way to treat anyone during a debate. You wouldn't understand, seeing as how incredibly rude you are to even your fellow peers.
Oh, so you mean the way Ron Paul supporters treat any dissenters? Being presumptuous in their choice of language, misrepresenting what people say, being generally condescending... wow Grog that sounds like a perfect description of you, DE, and Trav.

You can dish it out but you can't take it.

Quote:
When he gets loud is everyone is either booing and/or cheering. When he is otherwise speaking he is not loud. He does have to be very clear on his words because they are substantially differnt than the others and he has to make sure it cannot be misinterpreted.
Funny, other candidates don't get "loud" when everyone is booing or cheering. Maybe they know to shut up when the crowd takes over for a minute. I'm sure Ron Paul will learn that with more experience.

Ron Paul is very clear on his opinions. Ever wonder if that has any connection to his dismal poll numbers?

Quote:
I can honestly say none of the other canidates genuinely have the love and understanding for liberty that Paul has. I'm not saying they are all little Stalins, I just believe they misunderstand what true liberty is. The comment was especially appropiate considering the poster characterized the other canidates are two-faced liars.
So you defend the stance that you have the right to declare what is true liberty and who really loves it or not based solely on your opinion.

Quote:
You have no room to talk about intolerance. It is amazing how incredibly intolerant you are of a person who's only disagreeance with would be foreign policy.
*yawn*

Your proclamations never cease, do they? You are the gatekeeper to true liberty, you are the arbiter of what can and cannot be said. Just what other of my rights do you claim ownership of Grog?

Why don't you take the jackboots off and start practicing what you preach about liberty.

Also, it's disingenuous to characterize me vis-a-vis Ron Paul as merely being a matter of simple disagreement over foreign policy. His foreign policy is so repugnant and unconscionable and intolerant that it makes the man himself completely unacceptable. The same way I can never think a Hillary presidency would be fine since despite her essentially sensible foreign policy views she is basically a declared socialist on domestic issues.

Quote:
Get off your high horse and shut up.
Quit bitching and just leave. Nobody will shed a tear.
A common sign of Ron Paul supporters is illiteracy.

I included myself in that, there's no high horse around retard.

God what a dumbass.

And by the way, if you left, no one would even notice.
 
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Old 10-09-2007
 
#23
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
I'm a little skeptical of the claim that the reason Al Qaeda attacked us was solely because of our intervention in the region. Yes, I agree that our intervention is not helping. However, Al Qaeda are religious fanatics who honestly believe that the west should be destroyed. No, the average Arab does not hate us "Because of our freedom". But yes, the average member of Al Qaeda does. One of the reasons they want to destroy us is because they want to destroy the west in general and we are the west's preeminent power. In policy this doesn't translate into a ton of differences between Ron Paul and I, but I think he is wrong about it.
Well the thing is there is not a single person that I know of who has stated that Al Qaeda attacked us solely because of our actions in the Middle East, much like there aren't many historians who say slavery and states rights were the sole causes of the civil war. Obviously there are other factors at work, but the fact remains that Al Qaeda attacked us because of our actions in the Middle East. Says who? Says Al Qaeda.

If I punch you in the face you could either ask me why I did it or you could go to some boxing commentator who reasons that I have some natural tendancy for a snapping motion in my arm which caused me to strike you. The first is probably the more reasonable approach. Same thing with the "they hate our freedom" camp and their heralds, they try to come up with some elaborate (yet incredibly simple-minded) conspiracy theory about how Al Qaeda plans to takeover the world.

Not only that but they turn it around into a self-fulfilling prophecy. They invade these very same regions which cause Islamic Fundamentalism to spread like wildfire, then use this as proof of the original claim, even when they caused it to happen in the first place.

Al Qaeda then uses Islamic Fundamentalism to gain credibility and support and this is taken as further proof that "they hate our freedom."



And I don't know why people are still arguing with spinmaster Chaos and his invalid debate tactics. He has somehow managed to convince people that stating your opinion makes you intolerant of other peoples views. SPIN. If you say "Ron Paul supports liberty" he somehow spins this into "Ron Paul supporters hating freedom" because we allegedly try to silence other peoples views, ridiculous.

It is my opinion that Ron Paul is the true champion of the constitution and liberty, and my evidence is his voting record and his countless papers and essays on the subject. Of course this is the area that Chaos must stray clear from, in fact he probably wouldn't want to touch this with a 10 foot pole. When it comes to the issues his arguments seem to fall short on every level, so instead he resorts to attacking "Ron Paul supporters" as if this were a valid debate tactic.

Ron Paul supports the 2nd ammendment. Ron Paul is pro-life, but agrees that fundamentally the issue is one the states should handle, and not the federal government. Ron Paul is the champion of the constitution, states rights, and individual liberty. He has never voted to raise taxes and always votes against spending increases. He has never voted to increase congressional wages and compensation and returns a portion of his earnings to the treasury each year. Ron Pauls integrity is unmatched by any candidate besides perhaps Mike Gravel or Russ Feingold, there is no pandering to the whims of the voters. Ron Paul believes firmly in individual liberty whether or not that is politically expedient at any given moment.

So which of these issues do you disagree with? Are you against the 2nd ammendment? Do you support federal control over every aspect of life, including life itself? Do you believe in states rights and our federal system? Do you support higher taxes and out of control spending? Do you support inflation and a 9 trillion dollar national debt that must be borrowed on the order of 3 billion dollars per day from foreign countries like China? Do you support wars with no benefit to this country whatsoever, beholding us to organizations like the WTO and the UN, and forcing our grandchildren and their children to pay for these endeavors?

More importantly, which candidate do you support? I would love to see Ron Paul go head to head with any single candidate running for office in 2008, we can breakdown every single issue and see where both stand.
 
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Old 10-09-2007
 
#24
United States Chaos
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

I have to go to work but this caught my eye:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.43bdd5f.html

Dr. Paul's principled stance on government spending suddenly seems a little... unprincipled?
 
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Old 10-09-2007
 
#25
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

"However, Mr. Paul usually votes against final spending bills containing his earmarks when they reach the House floor."
 
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Old 10-09-2007
 
#26
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Man I am actually going to post in Serious Discussion even though this is probably more of a General Discussion topic. Sucks that it is all about Ron Paul though. And I will give my two cents on him: I don't like him. I read his platform and I just don't agree with most of what he says. I don't understand why he has gotten all of this attention (well, on internet blogs and message boards). I don't see what is so promising about him.

But the candidate that I do support is Dennis Kucinich. I think he probably has the most mainstream views yet he polls at 2% with registered voters. Whatever.

Here is what his platform is (from wikipedia), if anyone cares (need some break from Ron Paul god damnit):

* Creating a single-payer system of universal health care that provides full coverage for all Americans by passage of the United States National Health Insurance Act.
* The immediate, phased withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Iraq; replacing them with an international security force.
* Guaranteed quality education for all; including free pre-kindergarten and college for all who want it.
* Immediate withdrawal from the World Trade Organization (WTO) and North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).
* Repealing the USA PATRIOT Act.
* Fostering a world of international cooperation.
* Abolishing the death penalty.
* Environmental renewal and clean energy.
* Preventing the privatization of social security.
* Providing full social security benefits at age 65.
* Creating a cabinet-level "Department of Peace"
* Ratifying the ABM Treaty and the Kyoto Protocol.
* Introducing reforms to bring about instant-runoff voting.
* Protecting a woman's right to choose while decreasing the number of abortions performed in the U.S.
* Ending the war on drugs.
* Legalizing same-sex marriage.
* Creating a balance between workers and corporations.
* Ending the H1B and L1 Visa Programs
* Restoring rural communities and family farms.
* Strengthening gun control.

Also, which is rather interesting with the growing anti-war sentiment, is that he and Ron Paul are the only candidates who voted (obviously of the candidates that could vote) against going into Iraq. And those two aren't their respective parties front-runners. Doesn't really make much sense to me, but I guess since the media pretty much controls the elections, it isn't that surprising.
 
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Old 10-09-2007
 
#27
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Well the media has pretty much already annointed Giuliani and Hilary, with Obama and Romney set to be 2nd place (VP's or State officials).

Did anyone watch the GOP debates tonight? Ron Paul was asked a total of 4 questions compared to Thompsons 15-17. Ron Pauls total air time was less than 4 minutes out of 2 hours of debating.

Anyways, my dream matchup for president of 08 would be between Kucinich (I), Paul (L), and Gravel (D).

Kucinich has the right ideas and I agree with a lot of his policies, but he does not want to fundamentally change the structure of our government and so he is just another cog in the wheel. Don't get me wrong, he also presents the 2nd greatest threat to the establishment, and would do much to reverse the trend in our government of pre-emption, secrecy, and curbing of civil liberties. But he would not reduce either the size or scope of the federal government.

His position on the 2nd ammendment also forces me to consider him unworthy of being president.
 
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Old 10-10-2007
 
#28
United States Chaos
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Quote:
"However, Mr. Paul usually votes against final spending bills containing his earmarks when they reach the House floor."
However, this is a matter of principle, not of profess to believe something and only behave according to that some of the time. Ron Paul's answer that the IRS steals money from his constituents and he's just trying to get it back fails to impress me. If he really meant that he should push to have a law decreeing that a certain percentage of federal taxes from an area should be used on that area. Instead he has no trouble with voting to appropriate money for his Texas district from, say, taxes collected in Oregon or wherever.

That is hardly a principled stance on the issue.

Now, the GOP debate!

It's about time they cut out 4 or 5 of these candidates from the debates. Tancredo, Hunter, Tommy Thompson, Sam Brownback, at the least, should be gone. If Ron Paul doesn't get above five percent after the next debate or two, him as well. There are too many people up there and it's time to stop giving the fringe candidates a privilege they do not deserve.

Ron Paul hit home runs on almost every economic question, he was great. On foreign policy he got smacked by Giuliani, again. His comment that we were attacked on September 11th by 19 thugs and no more was simply ignorant and he contradicted himself. al-Qaeda is well-funded by various rich Arabs including many Saudis well-connected to the Saudi government, individuals in the Pakistani government, al-Qaeda was given safe haven by the Sudan prior to 1998 and was essentially co-ruler of 90% of Afghanistan along with the Taliban before the Coalition invasion. State sponsorship of terrorism is a real issue what with open Iranian support of Hezbollah and various Palestinian terrorist groups. Ron Paul apparently believes that none of that is real and that al-Qaeda and other terrorists are just a bunch of barely worth noticing thugs. That's a naive, ignorant, dangerous position, and that's the position he gave the impression he believes in during this debate. He did not do well.

Giuliani clearly won the debate after his dust-up with Mitt Romney. Romney would have been the winner of this debate except when he and Giuliani faced off Rudy simply beat him down. Everything Romney had to say, Giuliani had a more credible-sounding rebuttal. That said, Romney did say a lot of good things but Giuliani just did better.

Fred Thompson's big debut! B-. He sounded like he wasn't really familiar with all the facts on economic issues and stuck more to generalizations and sound bites than substantive comments. He didn't try to get into fights with any of the other candidates, he just tried to define himself. He never sounded like he was excited, he sounded interested, authoritative and focused, but not filled with any particular passion. On foreign policy he and Giuliani were more or less even, both of them did very well.

John McCain's campaign continues to fade into obscurity. Nothing he said or did stood out to me, he was just kind of there. He tried, at one point, to get into a confrontation with Ron Paul over foreign policy and everyone basically ignored him. When your campaign is generally decreed to be on life support, an average, slightly lukewarm performance is the same as a terrible performance. John McCain did not step up.
 
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Old 10-10-2007
 
#29
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Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Paul's position is that as a congressman for his district, he has a obligation to his constituents to send their funding requests to congress. Then when it comes time to vote, he votes against them.
 
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Old 10-10-2007
 
#30
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 Chaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, goshChaos should come up with their own damn reputation titles already, gosh
Default Re: P.O.T.U.S. '08

Quote:
Paul's position is that as a congressman for his district, he has a obligation to his constituents to send their funding requests to congress. Then when it comes time to vote, he votes against them.
Which isn't compatible with his quoted position that the IRS steals money from his constituents so he's trying to get it back by voting for the theft of tax dollars from other constituencies.

Either way, it shows Paul is a snake-oil salesman. He's against earmarks but not for his district, but really he is, he gives the impression to his constituents that he is fighting for them when in reality when it comes time for the final vote he denies them what he says at other times they are due.

Ron Paul to his constituents: You deserve earmark money because the IRS steals your money and also I have a duty to make your requests known in the Congress, but you don't really deserve earmark money beacuse earmarks are bad so on the final vote I'm going to vote against you getting the money while telling you that you deserve it.

Sure I'll go to the store for you and get you that milk dear. *Two hours later* Sure, I said I'd go get that milk, but honey, it isn't my place to go get you milk. Sure I said I'd do it, I said you deserved that milk, but I didn't really mean it. What I meant was I say one thing and do another.
 
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WELL THEY CALL ME MIKE D THE EVER LOVING MAN
IM LIKE SPOONIE GEE WELL IM THE METROPOLITICIAN
YOU SCREAM AND YOU HOLLER
BOUT MY CHEVY IMPALA
BUT THE SWEAT IS GETTIN WET AROUND THE RING AROUND YOUR COLLAR
 

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