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Old 10-03-2008
 
#16
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Originally Posted by KnightWolf View Post
All that aside .... let's see ... what does the that new reward system offer !!? ... it offers - for example - 50% more EXP and also more/better items from monsters ( aside from the MF bonus if ti was implemented in D3 ) all that in a single game ( meaning less time wasting .. even if you clear a whole floor .. it won't take as long as doing 8 runs ) .... and when you finally reach the boss you will get 50% more EXP from it and also more and much better items.

The whole point of the reward system is to give you large amounts of items and EXP equal to what you could have gotten in several boss runs but instead in much less time by rewarding you for how effectively/good have you been playing the game either solo or it a team which the dev team wants to encourage ( which also is the whole point of the game ... PLAYING it .. not skipping through the levels !!!! )
While I generally agree with you in that penalties are needed to keep the game interesting and to give health meaning, I disagree in the way you've gone about it. The main problem I see with a reward/bonus the longer you survive (as opposed to a forfeit/disadvantage upon death) is that it is bound to lead to time wasting. What I mean is that players are likely to just leave the game on and doing something else while waiting for their EXP and/or drop rate bonuses to max before even starting to play the game.

Hence, the method ought to be time independent. As such, the easiest, simplest and most straightforward place to implement the penalty is upon death. For the most part, I think D2's system worked. The only 'problem' that people generally disliked is the 'corpse running' aspect of it, which I agree is a hassle and should be thrown out. Instead, just make it so that the player respawns in town with an EXP reduction and damaged gear (thus incurring a currency penalty, and so possibly keeping currency relevant through out the game). As for needless backtracking, this can be solved by simply providing more way points and/or having an NPC who (for a fee) teleports you to where you died.

Alternatively, keep the exact D2 system but have an NPC (the healer perhaps?) who can reclaim your corpse for you. I can even see the Witchdoctor having this as one of his ability (Corpse Walk?). Incidentally, I also noticed a possible glitch in D2 where if you closed the game without saving after you died, your corpse reappears in town the next time you play.
 

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Old 10-03-2008
 
#17
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What I mean is that players are likely to just leave the game on and doing something else while waiting for their EXP and/or drop rate bonuses to max before even starting to play the game.

Hence, the method ought to be time independent.
It is time independent .... completely time independent, it seems i didn't explain it thoroughly or you didn't read all the previous posts, anyway, i'll explain how it works in a more direct way.

There is no waiting ... you actually need to kill monsters to increase the bonus gain of items and EXP, it doesn't increase if you just stand there, the whole point is to give more reasons for the player to keep fighting all the time.

It makes you want to hunt down every little one of those monsters cause you know that every kill not only gives you (EXP) and (items) it also gives you --> (a bonus so that the next monster you kill gives you even more EXP and a higher probability at better items).

It also encourages team-play ( which is a big concern for Blizz ) since large groups can finish off much more monsters in less time if they co-operate.


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Alternatively, keep the exact D2 system but have an NPC (the healer perhaps?) who can reclaim your corpse for you. I can even see the Witchdoctor having this as one of his ability (Corpse Walk?). Incidentally, I also noticed a possible glitch in D2 where if you closed the game without saving after you died, your corpse reappears in town the next time you play.
Although i think the old system already bit the dust ( as mentioned by Bashiok ) i do like the idea of paying money to an NPC so that he retrives your corpse for you ( in case you don't have the money then you go get it yourself ) ... that could have been a great update for D2 in a patch or something, but i don't think the D3 team will consider returning the old system at this point.
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
#18
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Originally Posted by mr. peasant View Post
Incidentally, I also noticed a possible glitch in D2 where if you closed the game without saving after you died, your corpse reappears in town the next time you play.
Just a quick note -- this is intended, not a glitch. Sometimes it's impossible to retrieve your corpse in a game, upon leaving the game saves the corpse with the highest value of itmes on it (gold wise)

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Originally Posted by KnightWolf View Post
This is not really about punishing for gameplay style ( a fact is that the Boss runs are an unwanted gameplay style as explicitly stated by the D3 dev team )
Could you please source this statement? Because I'm pretty sure no one specifically stated that they are going to do away with boss runs completely. The closest thing I remember is leveling up via boss runs (Baal Runs). What you're suggesting seems to indicate they want to avoid boss runs completely.

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It is actually more of a punishment for lousy playing ( taking too many risks, not knowing how to build your character stats and how and when to use skills ), if a reason to avoid death in the game doesn't exist then we might as well give the player infinite health cause death is already meaningless.
But they have a death system. You respawn with very low health at a checkpoint (whatever these are) instead of back in town (no longer have to rely on a TP). To keep fighting you must use a potion, or wait (HP recover on it's own like other games?)

Death should be penalized, but not crippling.

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You missed the point about the reward system, if there is any time wasting it is doing boss runs ( not to mention damn repetitive and boring, people only did them cause items were ridiculously and impossibly rare ) .... you gave an example about doing 5 runs at 300% MF and considered it better than 1 run at 800% MF ... naturally yes ... 5x300=1500 >>> 800 .. but lets not forget that 5 runs are practically a waste of time compared to 1 run.
Wait, I'm sorry what?

If you can complete 5 runs w/300% mf in the SAME TIME as you could run it with 800% mf for one run, then it is always better to run w/300% over 800% -- You're either confused, or are trying to confuse me here. It's not "considered" better, it's statistically better to run faster with less, the run slower with more.

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All that aside .... let's see ... what does the that new reward system offer !!? ... it offers - for example - 50% more EXP and also more/better items from monsters ( aside from the MF bonus if ti was implemented in D3 ) all that in a single game ( meaning less time wasting .. even if you clear a whole floor .. it won't take as long as doing 8 runs ) .... and when you finally reach the boss you will get 50% more EXP from it and also more and much better items.
See here's the problem -- This single game stuff. This is unfair to the extreme. You'd force people to play the game as you want them to. That is not right. You give no indication as to how long it will take to rack up this magical bonus to EXP and Item Drops (and what about people who are maxed? EXP means nothing), just that it would "be better" --

You're missing the point. If bosses still have a high change to drop better items on average, then spending extra time in Game A while you're friend has completed 5 runs of the same boss in Games B through F then he's going to be better off then you.

Unless you are suggesting a MASSIVE increase to boss drops, this system will never overcome a standard "faster w/less" way.

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The whole point of the reward system is to give you large amounts of items and EXP equal to what you could have gotten in several boss runs but instead in much less time by rewarding you for how effectively/good have you been playing the game either solo or it a team which the dev team wants to encourage ( which also is the whole point of the game ... PLAYING it .. not skipping through the levels !!!! )
Again, forcing people to play the game as you want them to. This is unfair, if people want to skip they should be allowed to skip. That's neither your decision to make, nor is it the devs. If they force a game on us where we are forced to go through each and everything no matter what I can guarantee you the game will not be as popular.

If anything I can bet you this wont be the case, as you can see with how they've handled WoW. They've made it easier for alts, rather then more difficult, and are investigating ways on how to make the game more fun for people playing through a second or third time, rather then leaving it tedious for them.

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And actually the D3 dev team also explicitly said they want to encourage team play .. so there it goes XD
Encourage does not equate to forcing them to team up. The idea here is that they would offer more team-based gameplay, as opposed to D2's singular "grouping" of experience runs.

This can't be your battle cry, because I don't think it means what you think it means.

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The older system did put much more stress since you knew once you died that you will lose money, EXP and all the items you carry, then you will have to backtrack all the way to the place of your death to take them back ( a big waste of time and effort )
The older system was fine. You died, you were severely punished, especially at higher levels (one death could mean the same as 50 baal runs, more if you couldn't recover the corpse).

The only flaw with it was the aggravating corpse run.

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But that reward system rewards and penalizes in a more streamlined way, there is no time wasting, boredom or much gold and EXP loss, all it does is that it throws you back right into the action after giving you a small poke in the shoulder " next time don't die too often if you want to get lots of EXP and cool items in a short time, good luck" XD
I'd rather die and lose exp, gold, and my items until I can recover my corpse then have to deal with some exp/drop increase system.

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Actually when i think about it, the whole D2 drop rates system was broken to begin with, some items and runes where almost unobtainable no matter how much time you wasted doing the same freakishly boring boss run for the 1000th time, if anything it actually FORCED people to do boss runs to have a chance to obtain those items ( or duping items for those who found boss runs to be damn boring and repetitive )

And in doing that it forced people to solo play or even to stick to certain character classes ( the infamous Sorceress and her teleport ), also if you play a Barb and teamed with a Sorc, there is no way you could have kept up with the other player thus there was no point in teaming up to begin with, and that completely destroyed team-play in D2,
I don't know what D2 you played, but I teamed up often when leveling. Once you hit Hell it becomes another story, because the sheer difficulty of that made it impossible to team up for any significant period of time, you often had to get help from a higher level, or solo it so monsters weren't impossible to kill.

A Paladin is probably more prevalent, and again this comes back to how you think the game should be played, and the problems you had with D2.

Runes were not difficult to option in D2, countess drops them at a rather high % up to Ist.

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Simply put, boss runs is seen by the D3 dev team as an unwanted exploit, that's not how they intended their game to be played at all, they didn't make all those monsters and levels so that you skip through them in a flash to meet a certain enemy, and if they don't want that then the new game design will have to encourage players to team up and work together to clear floors pretty fast to build up their bonuses then face the boss, which is the experience the dev team want to achieve in D3.
No. This is not what they meant. Your projecting your own feelings and gameplay preferences on the dev team. 100% guarantee you they don't think it's an exploit, and I can further bet you they won't include some 'anti-skipping' thing.

Boss runs, i agree were overdone in D2, but that was a problem with the drop system IMO. For instance I always thought finding cracked, normal white items in Hell was moronic. In Normal and NM you can almost pickup anything and fight with it, in Hell you couldn't kill something with a cracked axe.

Again forcing gamers to play the game a certain way is folly. Just because the game isn't being played the way they originally meant it to be played, doesn't mean they should punish those that aren't playing it the "right way"
 
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Old 10-04-2008
 
#19
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Let's first quote what has been said by Blizz on that matter

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Blizzard Quote: (Source)

There's an inherent issue in Diablo II, where the game is degenerated to a task of getting to point B as quickly as possible, spinning the wheel, and then you rinse and repeat. While a lot of people obviously take advantage of it, and it sort of becomes a game in itself to see how fast and efficient you can be, it's not necessarily engaging. You could also say it detracts from the feeling of being immersed in an entire game experience.

Regardless of what happens or changes in Diablo III there are always going to be the min/maxers that game the systems to be more efficient, but as a goal we want to encourage players to experience the game as a whole or at least to a larger degree than an end-game that devolves in to just killing a single boss over and over. A lot of those ideas and details are obviously still under wraps but it is something we're aware of and thinking about.
The words "degenerated" and "devolves"clearly show that it is not something they like or something they intended, and anything that falls under that category is practically an "Exploit" .... but let's leave the words aside for now and get into the heart of the matter.



The D3 dev team is making the new game with two or more focuses on their mind ( in case you watch/read the interviews ), first is to keep the flow of action uninterrupted, second is to encourage team play, third is to encourage the player to explore the game.

Now let's pick them one by one.

Keeping the flow of action ... old D2 penalty broke the action pacing .. it kicked the bucket .... having to go to town every few minutes to buy potions broke the flow ... now potions are not as useful or needed since we get Health Orbs.

But you still need a decent penalty ( the current one is too soft ) .... one that serves that goal of not breaking the flow of the action ... but actually encourages you to keep the action flow and to keep fighting .. which is the complete opposite of what the old penalty did.


Encourage team play ... basically the hardest one .. how could you encourage team play in a game if there is no real reason to team up with other players .. and where skipping through levels is the name of the game .... how do you expect to ENCOURAGE team-play if the game system that benefits boss-runners still exists ... and i'm not suggesting an anti-skipping"thing" .. rather making it not worth the effort will make people give it up by themselves.

And obviously "Forcing" people to team up is a completely different story than encouraging them .. you have no idea what could be done to force people to team up .... team only dungeons ... team only quests .... etc etc

The system i suggested merely gives you more reasons to team up with other people .. and that's barely encouragement ( we are speaking about a game system that gave you almost no reasons to team up with anyone ), there is no "Obligation" or "Forcing" here.


Encourage people to explore the game .... now let's imagine a game that gives you no incentive to explore .. you only want to skip to the bosses and kill them over and over again .. even with new characters .. all you do is skip .. skip .. skip ... and so on so forth .... how do you expect to encourage someone with that mentality to explore the game .... surely not be telling him "please explore our game" .... but by giving him reasons/benefits from exploring the game .... a BONUS for exploring the game thoroughly ( hence there is no forcing what so ever ) is what is needed .... i'm not telling you "you need to explore every inch or you won't finish the game" ... the whole point is giving those who play the game more reasons and benefits from exploring it .. thus "encouraging" them to do so.


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And when you get a system that embraces those three points all-in-one then how come it is not streamlined ... how come that a system that encurages becomes forcing ... encouragement requires some active effort in givnig the player resosns to do something ... if he CHOSE not to do it then he will lose the bonus he could have gotten .. but still he will do WHATEVER he wants in the end ( be it boss runs or whatever ) ... he just won't be getting that bonus because that bonus was meant to "encourage" something else .. so where is the forcing here !!!?


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Also ... i can't imagine a Blizzard team making a game they don't like .. i can't belive some people say the Dev team have no right to do so and so ... that's just ridicolus ... Blizzard teams always stated that they make games they LIKE to play first and foremost .... i can't imagine myself making a game that i don't like .. how the heck am i gonna create a good product when i hate its guts ... no way ... simply expecting that the dev team will make something just because people think it is right or good doesn't make any sense.

If the new D3 team doesn't like boss runs they will make sure to diminish it by encouraging other methods they like ... if they like team play they will make sure to give benefits and reasons for people to team up .... all in all ... if they don't like something then 98% it is not going to be in the game .. if they don't like an art style .. 99.9% it is not going to be the art style of the game ... it is as simple as that .... and i'm not speaking on their behalf or defending them .. i'm stating the obvious .. that's simply how they do things as it is evident in all their games and interviews.
 

Last edited by KnightWolf; 10-04-2008 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 10-04-2008
 
#20
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Originally Posted by KnightWolf View Post
Let's first quote what has been said by Blizz on that matter

The words "degenerated" and "devolves"clearly show that it is not something they like or something they intended, and anything that falls under that category is practically an "Exploit" .... but let's leave the words aside for now and get into the heart of the matter.
You're clearly pushing your own feelings on their statement.

This:
"but as a goal we want to encourage players to experience the game as a whole or at least to a larger degree than an end-game that devolves in to just killing a single boss over and over. A lot of those ideas and details are obviously still under wraps but it is something we're aware of and thinking about."
Look, they are saying that, and they're right, that the endgame of D2 ended up nothing more then running Baal endlessly until you maxed. That's not an exploit, it's just how the game evolved. No where in that statement does it say anything about it being an exploit, or a feature they are going to totally eliminate, or that it was 'the wrong way to play' the game.

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The D3 dev team is making the new game with two or more focuses on their mind ( in case you watch/read the interviews ), first is to keep the flow of action uninterrupted, second is to encourage team play, third is to encourage the player to explore the game.
But are we going to be forced to each of these things no matter what? There was a huge single player fanbase. I don't see them forcing team play on people.

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Encourage team play ... basically the hardest one .. how could you encourage team play in a game if there is no real reason to team up with other players .. and where skipping through levels is the name of the game .... how do you expect to ENCOURAGE team-play if the game system that benefits boss-runners still exists ... and i'm not suggesting an anti-skipping"thing" .. rather making it not worth the effort will make people give it up by themselves.

And obviously "Forcing" people to team up is a completely different story than encouraging them .. you have no idea what could be done to force people to team up .... team only dungeons ... team only quests .... etc etc

The system i suggested merely gives you more reasons to team up with other people .. and that's barely encouragement ( we are speaking about a game system that gave you almost no reasons to team up with anyone ), there is no "Obligation" or "Forcing" here.
No. It will be forced if you will be in a situation, like wow, in which you must team up to run those special dungeons with good drops, or defeat those powerful bosses with awesome drops.

I don't want to see that again. If I want to party I'll play WoW. I don't want D3 to be WoW jr and end up seeing "LFG" spammed on battle.net

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Encourage people to explore the game .... now let's imagine a game that gives you no incentive to explore .. you only want to skip to the bosses and kill them over and over again .. even with new characters .. all you do is skip .. skip .. skip ... and so on so forth .... how do you expect to encourage someone with that mentality to explore the game .... surely not be telling him "please explore our game" .... but by giving him reasons/benefits from exploring the game .... a BONUS for exploring the game thoroughly ( hence there is no forcing what so ever ) is what is needed .... i'm not telling you "you need to explore every inch or you won't finish the game" ... the whole point is giving those who play the game more reasons and benefits from exploring it .. thus "encouraging" them to do so.
Once you explored any area, you have little reason to go back. This is one of the reasons that Blizzard streamlined the tuning process in WoW for instances.

I love exploring, but I don't want to be forced to do it for every character (the rewards, again, will have to be something no game breaking).

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And when you get a system that embraces those three points all-in-one then how come it is not streamlined ... how come that a system that encurages becomes forcing ... encouragement requires some active effort in givnig the player resosns to do something ... if he CHOSE not to do it then he will lose the bonus he could have gotten .. but still he will do WHATEVER he wants in the end ( be it boss runs or whatever ) ... he just won't be getting that bonus because that bonus was meant to "encourage" something else .. so where is the forcing here !!!?
Confused here. Are you saying that players will be punished for NOT teaming up? Again, this isn't "forcing" players to team up, but if they're effectively nerfed for NOT, then it's basically the same thing.

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Also ... i can't imagine a Blizzard team making a game they don't like .. i can't belive some people say the Dev team have no right to do so and so ... that's just ridicolus ... Blizzard teams always stated that they make games they LIKE to play first and foremost .... i can't imagine myself making a game that i don't like .. how the heck am i gonna create a good product when i hate its guts ... no way ... simply expecting that the dev team will make something just because people think it is right or good doesn't make any sense.
If you make a game that only a few people like, then that game isn't going to sell well. The point is that if they change Diablo to be completely different from the solo-powerhouse-character-of-doom to wow-like-wimpiness-solo-mobs-one-on-one they're gonna piss a lot of people off.

I want a D3 that changes things up, but I'm sick to death of having to team up for special gear, or extras, or whatever. I like to solo sometimes, but I like to party sometimes. I want that choice. I don't want it made for me already (if I want to run deadmines in wow, for instance, that requires a party).

I don't want to end with something like "LFG The Pit for extra exp+loot" -- that would just be lame.

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If the new D3 team doesn't like boss runs they will make sure to diminish it by encouraging other methods they like ... if they like team play they will make sure to give benefits and reasons for people to team up .... all in all ... if they don't like something then 98% it is not going to be in the game .. if they don't like an art style .. 99.9% it is not going to be the art style of the game ... it is as simple as that .... and i'm not speaking on their behalf or defending them .. i'm stating the obvious .. that's simply how they do things as it is evident in all their games and interviews.
I think you've confused issues -- I think they were admitting that the big flaw of D2 was once you reached the end game, there's nothing left to do, except run Baal for exp, or possibly fight the Pandemonium Trio, which was a nice addition, but lets face it a gimmick.

agree w/the bit about d2 death was annoying
 
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Old 10-05-2008
 
#21
Egypt KnightWolf
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You're clearly pushing your own feelings on their statement
When you say something devolved or degenerated ( i.e someone's health degenerated ) it simply means it went into a much worse state, an unwatned one .... if it really didn't matter to them they wouldn't have used such words ... the end game didn't "evolve" it "devolve" .. actually just mentioning the topic means there was something wrong with it and that they want that changed .. if it was alright we would have heard about ways to "enhance the boss runs" or maybe nothing about the subject at all.

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But are we going to be forced to each of these things no matter what? There was a huge single player fanbase. I don't see them forcing team play on people.


No. It will be forced if you will be in a situation, like wow, in which you must team up to run those special dungeons with good drops, or defeat those powerful bosses with awesome drops.


Confused here. Are you saying that players will be punished for NOT teaming up? Again, this isn't "forcing" players to team up, but if they're effectively nerfed for NOT, then it's basically the same thing.

I want a D3 that changes things up, but I'm sick to death of having to team up for special gear, or extras, or whatever. I like to solo sometimes, but I like to party sometimes. I want that choice. I don't want it made for me already (if I want to run deadmines in wow, for instance, that requires a party

I didn't say will be punished for not teaming up ... but given a bonus if you did team up with others ... that's not the same .. you go solo .. you play the game normally .. you go Team you get an extra bonus for doing so .. a natural logical bonus since a group of people are naturally more effective than a single guy at clearing a stage from monsters ... so again i don't see any actual forcing here .... you can solo the whole game and get items and go to all the places a team will go to ... all the difference is that it will require slightly more time and a little bit more effort .. that's all ... cause if you expect a single character to be more effective than a party that's pretty flawed .... IMO your definition of forcing is pretty weird really !!!?

Sigh ... guess we will have to wait and see the more "eloberate" methods the D3 team said they are going to implement to encourage teaming-up.




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Once you explored any area, you have little reason to go back. This is one of the reasons that Blizzard streamlined the tuning process in WoW for instances.
Nope .. not in D3 .. every time you start a new game there will be new "Adventures" and new things to do ... imagine if they put effort in all that but people with the "SKIP" mentality just ignore it cause the want to do their UBER boss runs over and over again ... but if an alternative is there that gives players who want to explore the game a reward for doing so more people will be willing to explore the game world and team up with other people while getting a chance to get good items and eXP without doing boss runs.



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I love exploring, but I don't want to be forced to do it for every character (the rewards, again, will have to be something no game breaking).
Nobody will force you to do anything ... go do you boss runs if you want it that bad ... just don't expect any special bonus reward if you do so .. you are just getting what you sought .. just don't expect to get an encouragement bonus for doing something the Dev team consider degenerative for the game.

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I think you've confused issues -- I think they were admitting that the big flaw of D2 was once you reached the end game, there's nothing left to do, except run Baal for exp, or possibly fight the Pandemonium Trio, which was a nice addition, but lets face it a gimmick.
Agree ... the end game in D3 will really need to be well thought out this time, they really must enhance the PvP of the game to give people with end-game characters something fun to do.

Quote:
agree w/the bit about d2 death was annoying
Agree wholeheartedly XD


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The whole problem i see with your point of view is that it supports players who do boss runs but gives no alternatives to other players .... why allow a group of players should be given a certain option to level up fast and other players not willing to take that option are left with nothing ... that is not fair.

Players who want to runs will still do runs .. there is no way to prevent that 100% ( unless the game becomes extremely linear and unskippable like FPS games story modes, which is something nobody wants ), but what about the others that hate boss runs and don't want to do it .. they must be given other alternatives to get the same benefits ( which is in my opinion a bonus to those who team up and explore the game instead of doing boss runs )

Other wise the game will be biased towards boss runs and everyone will be FORCED to do them in order to catch up to the others or they will fall behind ( just like everyone was forced to get Enigma to be able to fight in PvP .. other wise you had no chance aganist a person with one ) ... now who is really forcing who, i don't want to play a game that forces me to do boss runs to keep up with others who do it, why not provide equally rewarding alternatives !!!!?
 

Last edited by KnightWolf; 10-05-2008 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 10-05-2008
 
#22
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Originally Posted by KnightWolf View Post
It is time independent .... completely time independent, it seems i didn't explain it thoroughly or you didn't read all the previous posts, anyway, i'll explain how it works in a more direct way.

There is no waiting ... you actually need to kill monsters to increase the bonus gain of items and EXP, it doesn't increase if you just stand there, the whole point is to give more reasons for the player to keep fighting all the time.

It makes you want to hunt down every little one of those monsters cause you know that every kill not only gives you (EXP) and (items) it also gives you --> (a bonus so that the next monster you kill gives you even more EXP and a higher probability at better items).

It also encourages team-play ( which is a big concern for Blizz ) since large groups can finish off much more monsters in less time if they co-operate.
Oops, my mistake on the time dependency issue. That said, I still think your suggestion has a few kinks. For instance, it discourages risk taking behavior in favor of playing things safe. If players are too hung up about worrying about their character's survivability, they would feel less inclined to experiment with atypical builds (which Blizzard has also previously mentioned as being keen on promoting). And at least for some of the classes, Blizzard has designed the game around the attitude of jumping feet first into the fray (literally for the Barbarian) without first pausing to evaluate how certain they are of winning the fight.

What I'm saying is that while penalizing players who frequently die is important, the price should not be so steep as to have players permanently fretting over the issue (in which a 33% drop in EXP gain is likely to cause). Your design works on the basis of the longer your survive, the higher the stakes. While this might make the action feel more intense, there are some problems.

For instance, the really bad players aren't penalized much since they aren't likely to have accumulated enough bonuses to actually make a noticeable difference when they die over and over again. On the contrary, those who've been playing fairly well and receive an honest death are the ones who are significantly penalized. In my opinion, an occasional death is perfectly acceptable since it helps break up the action (which was made more intense due to health orbs) as well as allow time for the player to recuperate, restock and reevaluate his strategy/play style.

In other words, you're punishing the wrong people.
 

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Old 10-05-2008
 
#23
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Originally Posted by mr. peasant View Post
For instance, the really bad players aren't penalized much since they aren't likely to have accumulated enough bonuses to actually make a noticeable difference when they die over and over again. On the contrary, those who've been playing fairly well and receive an honest death are the ones who are significantly penalized. In my opinion, an occasional death is perfectly acceptable since it helps break up the action (which was made more intense due to health orbs) as well as allow time for the player to recuperate, restock and reevaluate his strategy/play style.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant View Post
In other words, you're punishing the wrong people.
In one version of the system that could be true ... but there are already two versions of it ( one that works as a reward system only and one that works as both reward and penalty ) and with more tweaking there could be more versions possible.


For example .. in the ( reward only ) system

You said those who play good and accumulate a big bonus will be punished more since they will lose it and those who die often won't feel such loss .... actually that's what it seems at the first glance ... but if you think about it more you will find that those who had the bonus active for quite a long time has already gained extra EXP and much better items than those who died too often and weren't able to get that EXP and those items ... in some sense the bonus is continuous since even if you lost it has already gained you benefits the other player didn't get.

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In another example ( in the 2nd version with the reward / penalty )

A player who gets the bonus of ( 40%) on his EXP gain and items drop rate ( which means he is getting EXP and items at (140%) ) will be penalized in a different way from a player who keeps getting ( 10% ) and dies over and over ... that a rough imagining of how it will work out.

1-Player-1 ... with 40% bonus spent 3hrs building it up ... in an unfortunate accident his character died by a bunch of monsters who ganged up on him .... he does lose his bonus and its meter gets reset back to (0%) which seems rough surely but the compensation is all the extra EXP and items he got while the bonus was active .. so it all balances out.

2-Player-2 ... built up a 10% bonus after 45min of game play ... but he insists on rushing too many monsters at the same time ...and then runs from them after he realizes he can't kill that many .. but now a ton of monsters are on his tail ... his character eventually gets killed ... he loses his 10% bonus and it is reset to ( 0% ) ... but after he starts fighting again he does the same thing he did in the first time and dies again ... this time with his bonus meter at ( 0% ) ... this results in reducing his EXP gain and Item drop rate by ( -10% )... and if he dies again before resetting it to ( 0% ) .. like dieing with the bonus meter at ( -5% ) it goes back to ( -10% ) ... after three hours of reckless mindless play he surely have gained much much less EXP and items than the other player.

Note: dying while having your bonus meter at 0% would be a pretty rare occasion since every kill adds few points to your meter .. if the value added for each kill was 0.3% that means you need "Four" kills to reach (1%) .. and if you can't do that then you playing style is shitty and the punishment is right in its place XD
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There could still be some potential flaws there ... but by tweaking all these values the system could actually be more balanced and fair ( in either of its versions )... and since something like that requires actual gameplay tests it is left to Blizz to decide and tweak something like that if they consider the idea to begin with XD


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@Neo ... you mentioned the question of how the player would know about the bonus ... simple ... a meter smaller in thickness above the EXP meter .... when the bonus is active it gets filled with green .. move the poiunter over it it shows "30% bonus to EXP and item drop rate" ... filling the green meter to its end means the bonus is at its maximum ( 100% ) .. and that works well for the reward-only system.

But if you consider the penalty system in the second version of the idea it would make the meter simply turn red and change its maximum value to (-10%) .. which is the max negative penalty you need to overcome ( by gaining enough kills without dying ) to revert the meter back to green or (0%)
 
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Old 10-06-2008
 
#24
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Funnily enough... I think the best death penalty will simply be the loss of XP (without moving you back in levels however). It'll make death something you'd want to avoid as much as possible but will give you motivation to play more to regain the XP in case you die. And it won't encumber you with bothersome and discouraging mechanics such as retrieving your corpse.
 
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Old 10-06-2008
 
#25
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Agree. Loss of XP would be fine.

Knight you seem to be pushing this to far -- the fact is you are punishing those that don't build up their meters in a single game. Instead you reward people who play the way you want them too.

If I want to make a bunch of games in a row just to kill a boss in 3 minutes, instead of spending 30 minutes in the same game, then I should be allowed to do so, and not punished for not staying in the same game for a long time.

Punishing them maybe an overstatement, but I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. If you reward those that play how you want them to, you're indirectly punishing those that don't. That being the case it's unfair.

XP loss would be fair to everyone, and is quite simple. As for re-spawning at a check point with low hp, I don't see why that's a problem. If it includes XP loss, there you go.
 
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Old 10-11-2008
 
#26
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Why do people "skip skip skip"? Obviously what they are skipping is not fun or they wouldn't skip it.

Why would people not explore? Exploring is not fun.

Why don't people party up and group? It is not fun.

They key is to make these aspects fun. That is the only encouragement you need, any other kind of material-based encouragement does not compare.
 
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