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Old 09-11-2008
 
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Default Survivability, Health Orbs and Death in D3 [ Discussion & Suggestions ]

In a discussion on Diii.net i noticed few nice things, so i thought i'd sum up those ideas/suggestions in a topic for discussion ^_^


------------------------------------------------------

First the survivability bonus, which some people say is implemented in Too-Human, regardless of that i think it is a very good mechanic.

The more monsters you kill without dying the more bonus you get on EXP and Gold and even better chance of getting rares and uniques ( +5%, +8%, etc etc ) and it should be capped at 20% or something which requires you to survive for hours without dying, and once your character dies the bonus gets reset to 0%, that's surely one neat idea.

Why ?
1-Cause Blizz said they wanted the players to experience the game world more instead of doing Diablo & Baal runs, this idea solves this cause the more you fight and survive the more EXP, better items and Gold you accumulate.

2-It serves as a very good death penalty when the bonus is reset to 0%.


------------------------------------------


Second, Health Orbs, people said it is implemented in GoW but actually the better example is Ninja Gaiden games on Xbox and PS3.

-I think that ( Health Orbs with a good drop rate + Rare Potions for emergency ) is going to work just fine, it is a fair system but is pretty challenging too which is a good thing IMO, and anyone who played Ninja Gaiden knows that very well.


-----------------------------------------------

Third, the Death Penalty, after seeing the hazardously boring valkyire scenes from Too Human i think that D3 should avoid that kind of waiting-idly-to-be-resurrected-without-doing-anything, and when i looked back on D2 death penalty and revival i thought that WoW system is much better for more than one reason.

lore and suspension of disbelief wise
In D2 it didn't make any sense to have five dead copies of you on the floor, where did they come from !!!!

But in WoW you are a spirit looking for your body, which is more believable ( within the game context )

Gameplay wise
In many situation you get killed in a tight passage within some labyrinth miles away from town and every time you go to get you items back you get killed again and again, and then have to buy new gear and try again and again, blah blah blah, that's just broken IMO.


In WoW when you look for your body you are an invulnerable spirit which will allow you to reach your body and awaken it without too much frustration, in return as long as you are a spirit you can't interact with the world at all, no killing, no switching levers or picking up items and no opening doors, i think it is a fair trade.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Note: ( i really liked the first idea ( the survivability bonus ) when it was discussed on Diii.net, if anybody can it would be great if you post it on B.net for the developers to see it, i'm sure if it is implemented it will enhance D3 experience a lot )
 
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Old 09-11-2008
 
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Hmm, I dunno about the survivability bonus. Would this work from game to game? And wouldn't this give HardCore players a permanent bonus?

While I liked WoW's death/revival stuff, I really don't want to see it mimicked in Diablo. It was so boring sometimes, wandering back to your body.

Besides D3 doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be fun

The Orbs I'm sorta indifferent to, to be honest. I just hope they aren't replacing leech w/orbs completely.
 
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Old 09-11-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Neo View Post
Hmm, I dunno about the survivability bonus. Would this work from game to game? And wouldn't this give HardCore players a permanent bonus?
I guess it would be temporary and related to the game you are currently playing, once you die or close and save your game the bonus counter is reset to 0%

As for Hardcore, it would make no sense to have a death penalty since death itself is penalty enough in HC, i guess the counter will be fixated at 0% all the time.

On a side note, the max cap value could be reduced depending on diff., like 20% max bonus in normal, 15% in nightmare, and 10% max possible survivability bonus in hell.

Quote:
While I liked WoW's death/revival stuff, I really don't want to see it mimicked in Diablo. It was so boring sometimes, wandering back to your body.
While it can be slightly less interactive than the usual D2 revival method since the wandering will not involve much interaction, but it will be surly less frustrating.

And as a way to make things less boring your spirit form could be 25% faster than your normal character.

Or, if all that WoW revival didn't work there is another idea, when you get killed you simply awaken in the nearest town with your equipment and all but you lose gold and exp ( much more than in D2 ), this way there will be no more boring backtracking of any kind.

Quote:
Besides D3 doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be fun
I know, still that multiple dead bodies thing broke the suspension of disbelief badly since even a world like diablo has its rules that are important for the immersion of the player, i don't need to be reminded it is just a game.

And it wasn't that much fun anyway, it was frustrating to me 80% of the time XD

Quote:
The Orbs I'm sorta indifferent to, to be honest. I just hope they aren't replacing leech w/orbs completely.
But leech was kinda broken, at some point in the game it made you almost invincible ( along with potions ), i think if they keep it they will nerf it like they did with the potions.
 
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Old 09-11-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWolf View Post
Second, Health Orbs, people said it is implemented in GoW but actually the better example is Ninja Gaiden games on Xbox and PS3.

-I think that ( Health Orbs with a good drop rate + Rare Potions for emergency ) is going to work just fine, it is a fair system but is pretty challenging too which is a good thing IMO, and anyone who played Ninja Gaiden knows that very well.
If I'm not mistaken, part of the reason they implemented health orbs is to help maintain the pace of the game. In the old games, players would frequently just stand still, taking time off to rest and heal up, resulting in significant down time and an on/off feeling to the pace of action. With health orbs, the down time would effectively be reduced. This can't quite be accomplished with potions a plenty since potions have the additional complicating factor of being heavily used during combat, making it harder to die in combat.

That said, there are other ways to achieve this. For instance, rather than shortening the time for players to heal up, give them less opportunity. This can be done by simply spawning more monsters should a player stay in one spot for too long.


Regarding a death penalty, it simply chalks up to finding a penalty that can be incurred without too greatly inconveniencing the player but at the same time is not something so trivial that they couldn't be bothered. For instance, one option is to simply cause all your equipment to be damaged once you revive. Alternatively, you can keep the corpse running but instead of losing all your gear, it's only the equipment in your backpack that needs to be recollected.
 
 

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Old 09-12-2008
 
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But leech was kinda broken, at some point in the game it made you almost invincible ( along with potions ), i think if they keep it they will nerf it like they did with the potions.
I dunno about this. In Hell you needed quite a bit of straight leech to remain "invincible" not to mention the whole "Physical Immune" stuff where leech had no effect.

The potions in D2, as well you've got to remember, were more like Food in WoW, rather then Potions in WoW.

What I don't want to see is leech completely removed/only for high levels and replaced with orbs -- That really doesn't fix anything to be honest.

However if the health orbs also include, for instance, mana orbs (energy/whatever) then that might be interesting. I also thought it was annoying that melee/ranged could leech back mana, but magic-casters couldn't (without +mana after kill, but that was impossible to stack to any degree that mattered).

I'd really hate to see them nerf it though. To be perfectly honest, they already did nerf it in D2 -- in nightmare it was half as effective, and in hell it was a fourth as effective.

But yeah, generally I don't care about the orbs all that much, just as long as they aren't replacing anything.

I don't see why the current penalty wouldn't be fine. Considering their wish to make gold worth something, a drop in EXP and Gold would be pretty big dontcha think?
 
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Old 09-12-2008
 
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I don't know about the third, but i do like the first and second ideeas.

I do have one question though...ABout the survivability thing.

We will need to restart the game session once we kill all monsters in the the last act.
The thing is, last act doesn't necessarely mean we must spend the grinding in the last act.

It can be made that certain things drop only in certain parts of the world.
And because we will eventualy have to restart gaming sesion for the world to refill with monsters, i believe a different mechanic needs to be implemented. Monster respawning in game, after a certain period. THis way we won't have to EVER restart gaming session.

Only if we run out of electrial power will we restart the gaming session.
 
 

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Old 10-02-2008
 
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After the latest info by Bashiok on Death Penalties in D3 and that the penalties from D2 are no more, instead we get the character respawning at the nearest checkpoint ( way point ) with very low health but with his/her full gear ( probably one of the situations to use potions instead of waiting )


But some people see this system as too forgiving and removes fear of death, so i thought of something that gives the player more reasons to stay alive and avoid death as much as possible without enforcing a boring or time wasting penalty ( like in D2 ), and that system will involve the the "surviving bonus" but tweaked to work as a reward and penalty at the same time.


here are the details
----------------------------

-Player kills monsters he/she gains few bonus points for each 5 kills ( 0.3% for example ), so after clearing a floor clean of monsters the bonus ratio will reach 10% or more ( it could be capped at 20% or 30% or even current player level ... all depending on required balance )

-Now the Bonus is 10% which equals ---> 10% more EXP from each kill .... or ... 10% chance of better item drops .. or both

-That system has few benefits, but now i thought of a way to expand that, and actually use it as a penalty system too, i'll explain

Penalty System:

-When the player dies instead of the bonus reward dropping to 0% like in the first version of the idea it actually drops to a negative value ( lowering the EXP gain and item drop rate from its base values ).

-Like ... the player dies .. he/she of course loses any bonus he/she has been building up .. also the EXP gain or item drop rate drops ( for example ... to [-10%] EXP from monsters or [-10%] chance of item drops from monsters ... of course [-10%] or more ... depending on balance ), forcing the resurrected player to fight as soon as possible to restore his EXP gain and item drop rate values back to normal ... and eventually gain a bonus to make up for the time he/she had negative ( lowered ) gain values.


This way the system would double as a reward and penalty system at the same time, and also forces the player to keep fighting without wasting any time or breaking the flow of action.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Any thoughts !!?
 
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Old 10-02-2008
 
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It seems sorta pointless and complicated. To be honest those that complain about the death will just play Hardcore so it doesn't really matter what they say.

No offense I just don't really look forward to being punished for lag spikes or misjudgments. Games r fun!
 
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Old 10-02-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Neo View Post
It seems sorta pointless and complicated. To be honest those that complain about the death will just play Hardcore so it doesn't really matter what they say.

No offense I just don't really look forward to being punished for lag spikes or misjudgments. Games r fun!

Does that mean that aside from the HC mode you are against any sort of death penalty in the softcore mode !!!?, that's rare since most of the people that heard the news of the death penalty removal in softcore were very unsatisfied about it !!!

Specially that the D3 dev team didn't fully confirm that HC mode will be in the game, all they said was a vague indication that they might include it !!!
 
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Old 10-02-2008
 
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Uhm, yeah. I would think a respawn at very low health would be a pretty big punishment depending on how potions are handled and/or if the (checkpoint) is mobbed or not.

Respawning back in town and not being able to retrieve your body because you don't have a TP up isn't fun. And in Hell is almost impossible.
 
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Old 10-02-2008
 
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Originally Posted by Neo View Post
Uhm, yeah. I would think a respawn at very low health would be a pretty big punishment depending on how potions are handled and/or if the (checkpoint) is mobbed or not.

Respawning back in town and not being able to retrieve your body because you don't have a TP up isn't fun. And in Hell is almost impossible.

While i agree that the old D2 death penalty is awkward and broken ( also a boring waste of time ) that doesn't mean that the penalty to replace it would be the same.

It feels great when a game is smartly designed to sense how good are you playing in detail ( or how bad ), only few games do that, but introducing the Reward/Penalty system in D3 will make D3 reward good players for their skill and penalize bad or reckless players ( a penalty that's not boring, awkward or breaking for the flow of the gameplay )


Simply put ... if you fight well and make good use of your skills ( either in a team or alone ) you get more EXP and better items from clearing levels clean of monsters without dying once ( how much bonus is relevant to balance ), on the other hand if you keep messing up or try to rush your way to the boss and die few times you get get a slight negative penalty on your chance of getting good items and of course less EXP than normal.

This way both the penalty and the reward push you towards fighting the monsters on sight which in turn reinforces the contentious action flow the Blizz dev team has been wanting to implement in D3 ( evident by teleporting you to the nearest way point instead of town when you die, and of course the introduction of healt globes )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really don't see what's complicated about it, IMO it feels streamlined and solves many problems the D3 team is working on.



-Stopping the players from doing boss runs ( which is something the dev team said they wanted to stop explictily ), now you can get better items and more EXP if you fight the bosses with that bonus active which would require you to clear floors of monster before the boss encounter .. which also encourages team play since you can clear floors of monsters faster this way.

-Provides a Penalty that doesn't break the flow of action or feels boring and awkward like the old D2 penalty.

-Provides a reason for player to avoid death while at the same time giving the player a reason to keep fighting since every kill counts now, it will surely feel bad when you die and lose the bonus you built up but still it is not a loss that would grief the player since you didn't lose something physical ( EXP, Gold, Items ) ..... just go kill some more monsters.
 
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Old 10-02-2008
 
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Actually I feel your system would be better suited to a true MMO actually, as opposed to a 'faster paced' game like Diablo.

I don't think we should mess with EXP gain/loss myself, I think that introduces to much of a "reward those who have a lot of time to devote" things, wherein blizzard then has to adopt a 'Rest' like system.
 

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Old 10-03-2008
 
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Actually I feel your system would be better suited to a true MMO actually, as opposed to a 'faster paced' game like Diablo.
How is that !!, the whole point to the idea is to speed the action up, cause it is meant to reward/penalize players without wasting any time in the process, at the same time giving you a reason to keep fighting all the time, it is all meant to make the game faster paced ( as completely opposed to the old penalty in D2 which completely broke the flow of action and wasted a lot of time )


Quote:
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I think that introduces to much of a "reward those who have a lot of time to devote" things
Actually it is completely the opposite, a good player who plays for 2 hrs can gain more EXP and better items than a crappy/reckless player who has lots of time on his hand.

It rewards team work and good play by making the time you spend playing in the game more rewarding the better you play which is something not found in MMOs ( which are basically a grind in which [Time=Leveling up] regardless of how good you play, and that's one of the reasons why i don't like most of the MMOs )
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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Because punishing people for their gameplay style isn't the right thing to do. Just because you feel the game shouldn't be played that way, doesn't mean you should punish those that DO play it that way. Take boss runs for instance...

In D2 MF was all about quantity of kills over quality. 5 runs @ 300% MF was better then 1 run @ 800% MF. If you consider that same thing in D3 people will still run bosses as long as they have higher then average changes to drop items, whether there's a bonus to exp (if you're maxed what does exp matter?) or even if there's a bonus to items being dropped.

Your suggestion is basically forcing people into one specific gameplay style, that of having to clear levels (eg: waste time) before attacking the main target, and forcing people to party.

D2 had a very large solo-element to it. To remove that, or FORCE people to party to do things would be extremely annoying.

The system also puts undue stress on the player, if this bonus is capped at low levels, and you get more at higher levels, then there's going to be a rush to level asap (whether they have an exp bonus or not -- most exp bonuses don't really come into play until higher levels) ignoring anything else.

I rather like the idea of a simple system over some complicated system that includes exp or drop change punishments for death. As I said, your suggestion is much better suited for a true MMO game.

Forcing people to waste time while their "exp/item" gauge fills up isn't a way to keep the game smooth or fast paced at all.
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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Because punishing people for their gameplay style isn't the right thing to do. Just because you feel the game shouldn't be played that way, doesn't mean you should punish those that DO play it that way.
This is not really about punishing for gameplay style ( a fact is that the Boss runs are an unwanted gameplay style as explicitly stated by the D3 dev team )

It is actually more of a punishment for lousy playing ( taking too many risks, not knowing how to build your character stats and how and when to use skills ), if a reason to avoid death in the game doesn't exist then we might as well give the player infinite health cause death is already meaningless.

Death penalties are employed in games in various ways to increase the tension and excitement of surviving the odds knowing that if you screwed up it would have cost you something .. but you overcame that and made it through, that's a great self-gratification element that comes from overcoming challenges, if a game lacks that it becomes bland after a while.

Quote:
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Take boss runs for instance...In D2 MF was all about quantity of kills over quality. 5 runs @ 300% MF was better then 1 run @ 800% MF. If you consider that same thing in D3 people will still run bosses as long as they have higher then average changes to drop items, whether there's a bonus to exp (if you're maxed what does exp matter?) or even if there's a bonus to items being dropped.
Quote:
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Your suggestion is basically forcing people into one specific gameplay style, that of having to clear levels (eg: waste time) before attacking the main target, and forcing people to party.
You missed the point about the reward system, if there is any time wasting it is doing boss runs ( not to mention damn repetitive and boring, people only did them cause items were ridiculously and impossibly rare ) .... you gave an example about doing 5 runs at 300% MF and considered it better than 1 run at 800% MF ... naturally yes ... 5x300=1500 >>> 800 .. but lets not forget that 5 runs are practically a waste of time compared to 1 run.

All that aside .... let's see ... what does the that new reward system offer !!? ... it offers - for example - 50% more EXP and also more/better items from monsters ( aside from the MF bonus if ti was implemented in D3 ) all that in a single game ( meaning less time wasting .. even if you clear a whole floor .. it won't take as long as doing 8 runs ) .... and when you finally reach the boss you will get 50% more EXP from it and also more and much better items.


The whole point of the reward system is to give you large amounts of items and EXP equal to what you could have gotten in several boss runs but instead in much less time by rewarding you for how effectively/good have you been playing the game either solo or it a team which the dev team wants to encourage ( which also is the whole point of the game ... PLAYING it .. not skipping through the levels !!!! )



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
D2 had a very large solo-element to it. To remove that, or FORCE people to party to do things would be extremely annoying.
There is no harm to the solo system, a solo player who cuts through his enemies using his skills and avoiding death as much as possible till he/she meets the level boss and slays it will still get quite a hefty reward of EXP and items.

And actually the D3 dev team also explicitly said they want to encourage team play .. so there it goes XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
The system also puts undue stress on the player, if this bonus is capped at low levels, and you get more at higher levels, then there's going to be a rush to level asap (whether they have an exp bonus or not -- most exp bonuses don't really come into play until higher levels) ignoring anything else.
The older system did put much more stress since you knew once you died that you will lose money, EXP and all the items you carry, then you will have to backtrack all the way to the place of your death to take them back ( a big waste of time and effort )

But that reward system rewards and penalizes in a more streamlined way, there is no time wasting, boredom or much gold and EXP loss, all it does is that it throws you back right into the action after giving you a small poke in the shoulder " next time don't die too often if you want to get lots of EXP and cool items in a short time, good luck" XD


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
Forcing people to waste time while their "exp/item" gauge fills up isn't a way to keep the game smooth or fast paced at all.
Actually when i think about it, the whole D2 drop rates system was broken to begin with, some items and runes where almost unobtainable no matter how much time you wasted doing the same freakishly boring boss run for the 1000th time, if anything it actually FORCED people to do boss runs to have a chance to obtain those items ( or duping items for those who found boss runs to be damn boring and repetitive )

And in doing that it forced people to solo play or even to stick to certain character classes ( the infamous Sorceress and her teleport ), also if you play a Barb and teamed with a Sorc, there is no way you could have kept up with the other player thus there was no point in teaming up to begin with, and that completely destroyed team-play in D2,

Simply put, boss runs is seen by the D3 dev team as an unwanted exploit, that's not how they intended their game to be played at all, they didn't make all those monsters and levels so that you skip through them in a flash to meet a certain enemy, and if they don't want that then the new game design will have to encourage players to team up and work together to clear floors pretty fast to build up their bonuses then face the boss, which is the experience the dev team want to achieve in D3.
 

Last edited by KnightWolf; 10-03-2008 at 06:09 PM.
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