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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Default My fix for the gas mechanic...

Personally, Im not a pro-gamer, and couldn’t care if SC2 was a tad easier than Broodwar, but I would like to see the game succeed, and surpass the original. So, here’s my fix for the gas mechanic.


(Option 1) – Conversion (Minerals-> Gas)

It’s a simple concept, and becomes available in tier 2 for each race. Each refinery/extractor/assimilator would get some kind of upgraded version in tier 2, and it allows for converting mineralds into gas (for every 25 minerals = 15 gas); or visa versa.

For the terrans, the refinery would get an addon, and the addon would allow for conversion.
For the Zerg, the extractor mutates into an upgrade.
For the Protoss, you would simply be able to do this at the assimilator after acquiring a cybernetics core.


(Option 2a) – ByProduct (Refinery Resource)

This idea is more complicated than the first, and ultimately can turn SC2 into a more macro focused game.

Basically, byproduct is another resource, but it wouldn’t be used for production. The only thing Byproduct could be ‘spent’ on, are other upgrades for gathering resources.

How do you gather it?


1) Build a converter; each race gets their own version of it. Then the ‘gather byproduct’ option is available for the worker. You would tell them to gather it at the refinery, and they would bring it to the converter (doesn’t interfere with gas gathering). The converter would have to be build away from the refinery.

2) Gather High Yield minerals. In addition to the increase in mineral count, the player would gather an additional 2 ‘byproduct.’

As a result, you will have the option of using this resource in a number of ways, but ultimately, they all affect the gathering rate.

(Option 2b) – By-Product (Gathered from Base)

Its mostly the same as Option 2a, but not gathered from the refinery, and it can have a deadly effect if not addressed.

As you gather gas, each yield gives off ‘2’ waste to your command center/Hatchery/Nexus. Chemical waste builds up until it reaches the base’s limit.
Lets say the limit of radiation is 250, so it takes 1000 gas it fill it completely. By the time radiation is full, your base will slowly take damage, and the rate of damage can increase overtime.

So what do you do? Build a converter, and gather the waste, which converts it to by-product, then apply everything from option 2. The Converter would have to be build away from your base of course. And again, Yellow minerals give off waste as well.

One thing I do realize if if I went with option 2a or 2b, the gathering rate could shoot up from the original StarCraft, so the downside of all this is the balancing, but it would be a more effective way of increasing macro than just ‘refilling your refinery’.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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My complaints with option 1 is that while the Terran and Zerg have to spend extra on the add-on/upgrade, the toss will no doubt build a cybernetics core so there's no loss for them.

I couldn't see it being used for Terran or Zerg unless it was a similar scenario (i.e. Lair for Zerg, and what ever the equivalent for Terran would be... the name has completely slipped me... gah)
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Originally Posted by RainbowToeSocks View Post
My complaints with option 1 is that while the Terran and Zerg have to spend extra on the add-on/upgrade, the toss will no doubt build a cybernetics core so there's no loss for them.

I couldn't see it being used for Terran or Zerg unless it was a similar scenario (i.e. Lair for Zerg, and what ever the equivalent for Terran would be... the name has completely slipped me... gah)
I thought it would be clever, because the protoss have a kinda univeral tech tree. Well, lets say they had to research the conversion at the CyberCore, which has the same time and cost as the other two upgrades.

BTW, the equivilant for the Zerg Lair would be the factory.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny View Post
I thought it would be clever, because the protoss have a kinda univeral tech tree. Well, lets say they had to research the conversion at the CyberCore, which has the same time and cost as the other two upgrades.

BTW, the equivilant for the Zerg Lair would be the factory.
I wasn't really thinking a factory, uhm.. the Merc Haven is actually what I was thinking of.

But making it an upgrade at the Cybernetics Core would satisfy my needs.
I really don't like the current gas mechanic and don't really think there should be any, though if there is, your suggestion for the mineral->gas conversion would suit my tastes.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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I suggested an idea in the macro contest.
It went a little something like this.
You pay minerals to harvest gas faster. This can be shut on and off.
So if you want/need a lot of gas quick, you have to pay for it.
Simple.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
I suggested an idea in the macro contest.
It went a little something like this.
You pay minerals to harvest gas faster. This can be shut on and off.
So if you want/need a lot of gas quick, you have to pay for it.
Simple.
Is that a one time pay? Or is it like.. X minerals for every Y seconds the ability is active?
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Originally Posted by RainbowToeSocks View Post
Is that a one time pay? Or is it like.. X minerals for every Y seconds the ability is active?
x for y.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
I suggested an idea in the macro contest.
It went a little something like this.
You pay minerals to harvest gas faster. This can be shut on and off.
So if you want/need a lot of gas quick, you have to pay for it.
Simple.
I like simple myself, but isnt that why there's a macro issue in the first place, because things are too simple?

But whatever, your idea still sounds better than 'refilling geysers'.
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny View Post
I like simple myself, but isnt that why there's a macro issue in the first place, because things are too simple?

But whatever, your idea still sounds better than 'refilling geysers'.
It only appears simple. It is in fact quite skillful.
For you see, a superior player would keep track of when to turn it on, how long they keep it running, and when to turn it off. It would be used:

a) based on the tech they're trying to get (ex. using it for a quick gas boost to start getting Charge upgraded faster),

b) based on the state of their army (ex. they just got beat in a skirmish and the opponent is still pushing. More gas at a faster rate for a short time could let you get higher tech units faster to defend).
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
It only appears simple. It is in fact quite skillful.
For you see, a superior player would keep track of when to turn it on, how long they keep it running, and when to turn it off. It would be used:

a) based on the tech they're trying to get (ex. using it for a quick gas boost to start getting Charge upgraded faster),

b) based on the state of their army (ex. they just got beat in a skirmish and the opponent is still pushing. More gas at a faster rate for a short time could let you get higher tech units faster to defend).
I gotcha. Sometimes I think too hard
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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See, the problem with the Dark Pylon mining speed increase, is that its just busy work. There's no thought involved. "Click this every x seconds or you'll fall behind."
All it adds is stress.

By creating mechanics that give CHOICE, you actually deepen the gameplay. This is the idea behind my "autocast" mineral for vespene tradeoff.

Who would of thought you could use auto features to INCREASE macro, eh?
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
Who would of thought you could use auto features to INCREASE macro, eh?
Wait... are you suggesting making macro... FUN?!?!

MADNESS!!!

God damn I feel silly today...
 
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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Who would of thought you could use auto features to INCREASE macro, eh?
Right. But somehow, I don't think that certain others will consider it a "proper" macro mechanic. Since it doesn't require going back to your base regularly. And supposedly, that is the fundamental problem with macro in SC2.

Not that I hold to this position in any way, mind you. I'm just pointing out that the argument has been raised before.
 

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Old 01-18-2009
 
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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas View Post
Right. But somehow, I don't think that certain others will consider it a "proper" macro mechanic. Since it doesn't require going back to your base regularly. And supposedly, that is the fundamental problem with macro in SC2.

Not that I hold to this position in any way, mind you. I'm just pointing out that the argument has been raised before.
Macro is macro. It's doing stuff to aid your economy, base, and army as a whole. Just because you're not doing it every x seconds doesn't mean it's not valid. Once you have your "perfect amount" of workers mining, there's no need to touch them until you need to expand or you run out of minerals. Suddenly, an important macro mechanic no longer exists for a period of time. This is the exact same situation.
 
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Old 01-19-2009
 
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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
Macro is macro. It's doing stuff to aid your economy, base, and army as a whole. Just because you're not doing it every x seconds doesn't mean it's not valid.
I've heard people saying this "macro is macro" before, but actually I think it misses part of what creates the Macro-debate.

The anti-automine folks think that having to move your view back to your base is the most important part of macro. It forces you to split your attention much more than using hotkeys to do things remotely. This is why the reasonable "Pro-Macro" people have come to accept MBS it's really not that different from having all of your control groups be unit production buildings in SC/BW, so you can keep your focus on your troops while buildng. However, they feel that having to look at your base to manage your economy is important because it competes directly with army movements. In other words, it's much harder to use your troops effectively (micro) and assign workers manually (macro) than it is to control troops and build more troops.

Now, I think that those calling for the removal of Automine are dead wrong. I agree with people like you and Nicol Bolas that any new macro mechanic has to involve interesting choices and not be "busy work." I also think SC2 would probably be a perfectly good game without any additional macro-mechanic. But I think that if you're trying to add macro to appease the anti-automine crowd, you have to include something that takes you back to your base, because that's the main thing they care about, in my experience.
 
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