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Old 12-14-2008
 
#406
Antarctica Zura
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
By that same token there is no reason to suggest that it was not created by God. Therefore, we should just say "we don't know" and leave it at that.
Of course.

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He's saying that it's silly to believe that something was not created simply because you did not witness it's creation. Agree or disagree with that statement?
I suppose that is rather silly. My position would be that one needs evidence or a compelling reason to believe it was created. However, just because you cannot find such evidence or a reason, it would not necessarily mean the something in question was not created.

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And how do you know who created the room if you did not witness it's creation? How do you know it's made by humans?
The room is filled with man-made objects. I think its pretty obvious who is behind it all.

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Another thing, you wouldn't automatically assume that it created itself. You acknowledge that it was indeed created, and that the room did not somehow arrange itself into a room. But my question is, why assume somebody created it? Why can't we assume that the room created itself? According to quantum theory it's very possible for the room to have come about through completely random processes since everything is based on probability, and if that probability is not equal to zero it is possible (and according to some theories, actually happens).
According to some theories very improbable things can happen more frequently on the quantum level of reality, however that is just the thing. It only applies to the quantum level of reality, it does not apply to larger objects. There is a very low probability that random forces at work could have created the room, however, it is very very very very very unlikely, so the more obvious conclusion is that a human made it. If our level of reality was on the quantum scale though, that probability would be more likely however.

To be precise though, I do not literally think the room was "created" so to speak, more so humans manipulated already existing matter to look/act the way said humans wished. That is to say, humans are only rearranging things opposed to actually "creating" them.

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So you are saying if we were blasted out into space we would adapt to live in the vaccuum of space?
Certainly, the international space station was our first step in trying to do that, so hopefully our future innovations will help us even further.
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What about the suns nucleus, could we adapt to live there also?
Its not completely out of the question, at least for the more distant future. Now we do not have the ability to adapt to such an environment obviously.

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Surely if you can make exceptions for the universe then you might afford God the same courtesy?
Who said I left god out? I never said he had to be created too, I was just lost as to why it was assumed that the universe apparently had to be created yet god gets a free pass.

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So you believe the universe was "altered" from some unexplained prior existence into existence? How is that any more believeable than Goddidit, i.e. what makes that a superior explanation, and what specific predictions would it make?
No. All I said was that things in this current universe are only altered rather than created. As I've explained earlier in the thread, we cannot know if the universe was actually created or not, so my position is just "I don't know". As you know though, I believe goddidit is a more unlikely hypothesis just because we have no evidence for god's existence. That is only my belief though, and I have nothing wrong if you or others believe goddidit so long as you don't declare it as fact.
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Originally Posted by KnightWolf
@ZuraI, i'll reply to you soon expanding on the reply of "The Hawaiian"
Sounds good.
 
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Old 12-14-2008
 
#407
United States The Hawaiian
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Originally Posted by Zura View Post
The room is filled with man-made objects. I think its pretty obvious who is behind it all.
How do you know they are man-made? You didn't see a man make them!

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Originally Posted by Zura
According to some theories very improbable things can happen more frequently on the quantum level of reality, however that is just the thing. It only applies to the quantum level of reality, it does not apply to larger objects. There is a very low probability that random forces at work could have created the room, however, it is very very very very very unlikely, so the more obvious conclusion is that a human made it. If our level of reality was on the quantum scale though, that probability would be more likely however.
Which is exactly my point, scientific understanding of the universe so far tells us that things just don't make sense. Gravity doesn't apply on the quantum scale and quantum physics just happen (at least what we can say) on the large scale, but there is no principle which prevents either. They say we "might" come up with a GUT but that is pure speculation, in fact I think the claim is bogus. I think there are forces at work in this universe that are beyond human understanding.

Every generation likes to think of themselves as the pinnacle of human enlightenment, and this generation is no different. In the 50's they thought we'd have flying cars and in the 20's they thought we'd have the solar system colonized by now. Things don't seem to turn out that way. Ooooooh wow "power of the atom" we have harnessed, this means there are no limits to human progress!

The fact is that we don't know jackshit about the universe we are living in, and are only beginning to scratch the surface.

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Originally Posted by Zura
Certainly, the international space station was our first step in trying to do that, so hopefully our future innovations will help us even further.
Its not completely out of the question, at least for the more distant future. Now we do not have the ability to adapt to such an environment obviously.
lmao. Yeah and maybe one day we can live in singularities and black holes!!! People who think humans are gonna be flying around the galaxy any time soon need a serious reality check. If that ever does happen, it will be so far in the future that humans won't even be recognizable, and in fact won't be "human" at all.

But you are missing the point, the international space station was created for humans to live in, humans did not "adapt" to live in the international space station (as far as I know there have not been major evolutionary changes to the human astronauts body when they blasted off and went into orbit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zura
Who said I left god out? I never said he had to be created too, I was just lost as to why it was assumed that the universe apparently had to be created yet god gets a free pass.
Then me and you are more alike, in fact our arguments are identical but from different perspectives. You argue against the people who make exceptions for God and I argue against people who apply double standards for God. f

No. All I said was that things in this current universe are only altered rather than created. As I've explained earlier in the thread, we cannot know if the universe was actually created or not, so my position is just "I don't know". As you know though, I believe goddidit is a more unlikely hypothesis just because we have no evidence for god's existence. That is only my belief though, and I have nothing wrong if you or others believe goddidit so long as you don't declare it as fact.[/quote]

Agreed, I have no problem with your beliefs whatsoever, in fact I admire them.
 
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Old 12-15-2008
 
#408
Antarctica Zura
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How do you know they are man-made? You didn't see a man make them!
I'm pretty sure I've only seen humans make picture frames and chairs, so I'll have to beg to disagree.

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Which is exactly my point, scientific understanding of the universe so far tells us that things just don't make sense. Gravity doesn't apply on the quantum scale and quantum physics just happen (at least what we can say) on the large scale, but there is no principle which prevents either. They say we "might" come up with a GUT but that is pure speculation, in fact I think the claim is bogus. I think there are forces at work in this universe that are beyond human understanding.
How does it not make sense that gravity is too weak to do much on the quantum scale? You do realize that gravity is weaker than the other fundamental forces right? Likewise the 3 other fundamental forces are very strong, but as distance increases their influence gets weaker much faster than gravity.

It sounds bizarre that things behave so differently on different "magnifications", however, one must take into account that we only live on one of these magnifications, which is why we tend to think things must be consistent through all magnifications.

However, as we change scopes, certain entities only have so much influence over a given amount of space. Think what it would be like in the world of an ant. The force of a rain drop at the ant's scale is massive compared to what it is at our scale. Sure the rain drop has a given amount of force and what not, however, you need more raindrops to effect things very much on our scale of reality.

If this still does not make sense, I would not be very surprised as anything presented in quantum mechanics and even relativity can be pretty hard to absorb. However, we must all keep in mind that just because we have difficulty in understanding something, that does not necessarily make said something absurd.

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Every generation likes to think of themselves as the pinnacle of human enlightenment, and this generation is no different. In the 50's they thought we'd have flying cars and in the 20's they thought we'd have the solar system colonized by now. Things don't seem to turn out that way. Ooooooh wow "power of the atom" we have harnessed, this means there are no limits to human progress!
I didn't say we'd be living in space or in the sun tomorrow or even in my lifetime. Nor did I even hint that I thought this generation is the pinnacle of human enlightenment. Honestly I think this generation is mostly shit ass dumb.

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The fact is that we don't know jackshit about the universe we are living in, and are only beginning to scratch the surface.
I completely agree.

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lmao. Yeah and maybe one day we can live in singularities and black holes!!! People who think humans are gonna be flying around the galaxy any time soon need a serious reality check. If that ever does happen, it will be so far in the future that humans won't even be recognizable, and in fact won't be "human" at all.
Again, your assumptions of my views are horrendously inaccurate. I think humans may one day be able to do some of the crazy things that we would not imagine us doing now, however, I don't think it will be anytime soon and certainly not within my lifetime. If I'm lucky I might be able to at least see fusion power be masted =/

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But you are missing the point, the international space station was created for humans to live in, humans did not "adapt" to live in the international space station (as far as I know there have not been major evolutionary changes to the human astronauts body when they blasted off and went into orbit).
Your actually missing the point here. Our superior brain, a product of evolution through natural selection, is the reason we were able to build the ISS, which allows us to live in space. Just because our bodies cannot live in an environment does not mean we cannot adapt to live in that environment.

Think of it this way, do you think you could live in Alaska ass naked? Probably not, but people still live there and I think most would argue that people have adapted to live in Alaska because of that.

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Then me and you are more alike, in fact our arguments are identical but from different perspectives. You argue against the people who make exceptions for God and I argue against people who apply double standards for God.
This is good. While me and you obviously disagree about many things, I think we can both agree that it is good that both atheists and theists are held accountable for the logical fallacies and false facts presented in their arguments.
 
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