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Old 12-15-2008
 
#76
United States Chaos
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Yes you would Chaos, because that is exactly what we are talking about. Did you think you were going to spend life in county jail?
Unfortunately, unlike you and DM, if I was in jail for life I wouldn't become somebody's bitch. Because unlike the two of you, I am smart enough to know how to play the system. You two would meekly go straight into the general population and be getting double banged for the rest of your lives, I'd either make it so I was in solitary 23 hours a day or any of a number of other solutions that would lower my likelihood of being raped to as near zero as to make no difference. They're not hard to figure out if you're not an idiot.

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Let me explain this better. When you execute a murderer you are not "doing good." You are destroying evil. Destroying evil does not create good
Explain this ridiculously self-contradictory statement.

Wait, save us the bullshit and forget it.

Reflection who cares if the death penalty is a deterrent or not, who cares if it is racist as currently applied, who cares? None of your arguments, and none of the anti-death penalty arguments expressed here so far, are convincing at all that the death penalty is either unnecessary or immoral. Deterrence is completely irrelevant. Racism is also irrelevant to the death penalty itself; we could extend that argument to the entire criminal justice system if we wanted to, maybe next we can discuss whether or not we should put people in jail at all or punish them in any way for committing crimes because of racism. The death penalty is not magically in some class all its own, it is not a special case where those concerns have more weight than they do when it comes to imprisonment.

DM's argument basically boils down to "life in prison is more immoral than the death penalty so let's abolish the death penalty," which I guess makes sense if you're trying to win the award for civilized barbarism.

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Ok, let's up the ante.

Suppose they were to shackle you down torture you with the worst tortures known to man every day, but just short enough of what it'd take to kill you. You have no chance of escape. They leave no openings you could exploit. They feed you food and water through a gastric tube and electrically stimulate your muscles so that they do not atrophy too severely and compromise your health. They incapacitate you temporarily with drugs to perform maintenence on you then awake you and it's right back to torturing again. They expect that you'll be able to survive 20 or 30 years worth of torture.

Alternatively there's a button you can reach that, if pressed, would inject a powerful barbituate in your system that would render you unconscious in 5 seconds and kill you painlessly in about a minute.

Do you press the button?
I wouldn't. Assuming such a ridiculous as fuck situation could actually happen - by the way, it couldn't, not even the Nazis or Soviets even attempted to come close to anything like it - your mind would shut down in a very short period of time, a few weeks at the most, and you'd be catatonic for life. Even if the only point of the torture was an indulging in sadism, it would be self-defeating. So try harder and come up with a less fucking ridiculous hypothetical please. Hypothetical =!= license to abandon reason, sorry.

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I would agree with such a system if it were applied consistently. For example, let's punish every murder who kills innocent people. To be consistent, we would also have to punish everyone who was involved in the conviction of the innocent man, from the prosecutor to the judge, to the false witnesses and the jury. If all these people were also executed, I would agree with the system becuase it would provide a significant "check and balance."
Unfortunately that idea is stupid as fuck, which is not surprising considering it came from you. Executing a man after prosecuting him in good faith with full due process is comparable to murder? Get the fuck out. Jesus. Use the GI Bill already and get an education, please. Your critical thinking is at a level slightly lower than that of a four year old.
 
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Old 12-15-2008
 
#77
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I would agree with such a system if it were applied consistently. For example, let's punish every murder who kills innocent people. To be consistent, we would also have to punish everyone who was involved in the conviction of the innocent man, from the prosecutor to the judge, to the false witnesses and the jury. If all these people were also executed, I would agree with the system becuase it would provide a significant "check and balance."
This thread reminds me of an article I came across last year where an innocint man on death row was released when the real killer confessed to the crime he was sentenced for and revealed where he hid the body, but the prosecutor argued that since the man was convicted by due process in the court, that the sentence should still stand.

Do prosecutors have some kind of quota they have to fill or something?
 
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Old 12-15-2008
 
#78
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Originally Posted by Chaos
Unfortunately that idea is stupid as fuck, which is not surprising considering it came from you. Executing a man after prosecuting him in good faith with full due process is comparable to murder? Get the fuck out. Jesus. Use the GI Bill already and get an education, please. Your critical thinking is at a level slightly lower than that of a four year old.
When it leads to this:

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Originally Posted by Golgo
This thread reminds me of an article I came across last year where an innocint man on death row was released when the real killer confessed to the crime he was sentenced for and revealed where he hid the body, but the prosecutor argued that since the man was convicted by due process in the court, that the sentence should still stand.

Do prosecutors have some kind of quota they have to fill or something?
Yes. Agree or disagree that this is murder (the unjustified killing of a man)?
 
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Old 12-16-2008
 
#79
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Reflection who cares if the death penalty is a deterrent or not, who cares if it is racist as currently applied, who cares? None of your arguments, and none of the anti-death penalty arguments expressed here so far, are convincing at all that the death penalty is either unnecessary or immoral. Deterrence is completely irrelevant. Racism is also irrelevant to the death penalty itself; we could extend that argument to the entire criminal justice system if we wanted to, maybe next we can discuss whether or not we should put people in jail at all or punish them in any way for committing crimes because of racism. The death penalty is not magically in some class all its own, it is not a special case where those concerns have more weight than they do when it comes to imprisonment.
You conveniently forget all of the money wasted on the process of putting people to death. You shrug all of the arguments off saying they are unconvincing but fail to say why. There is no convincing argument for why the death penalty should exist. It doesnt deter, it holds the innate possibility of failing in an irreversible way, and it costs more than the alternatives.
 
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Old 12-16-2008
 
#80
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If it costs more to execute someone then to keep them alive in prison then there has to be some issue with cost being needlessly spent in doing so.

Death related to asphyxiation of inert tasteless gasses such as nitrogen, helium or carbon monoxide happen on accident all the time. You know if it's so easy you don't even have to pay attention to get the job done that it is painless and effortless.

Your body only recognizes itself as suffocating when it has high levels of carbon-dioxide. It's why using rebreather's under water are especially dangerous without training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_asphyxiation
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...47/ai_17374449
 

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Old 12-16-2008
 
#81
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But again there is the problem of executing innocent men. Like I said earlier, I would agree with the system if it were applied consistently. Murder an innocent man and you too shall be put to death. This includes those involved in the conviction and execution of an innocent man, since by definition this would be murder (the unjustified killing of a person).
 
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Old 12-16-2008
 
#82
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian View Post
But again there is the problem of executing innocent men. Like I said earlier, I would agree with the system if it were applied consistently. Murder an innocent man and you too shall be put to death. This includes those involved in the conviction and execution of an innocent man, since by definition this would be murder (the unjustified killing of a person).
There are different degrees of murder and your "consistency rule" disregards the mitigating circumstances inherently within the hypothetical situation. Does a manslaughter conviction necessitate the death penalty? I think not. If the burden of proof is such that any jury would convict the innocent man of murder, why should they be killed? The people committed manslaughter because the sentence was inevitable given the controlled situation.

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Originally Posted by Adovid
If it costs more to execute someone then to keep them alive in prison then there has to be some issue with cost being needlessly spent in doing so.

Death related to asphyxiation of inert tasteless gasses such as nitrogen, helium or carbon monoxide happen on accident all the time. You know if it's so easy you don't even have to pay attention to get the job done that it is painless and effortless.

Your body only recognizes itself as suffocating when it has high levels of carbon-dioxide. It's why using rebreather's under water are especially dangerous without training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_asphyxiation
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...47/ai_17374449
Cost issues are irrelevant in regards to societies need for justice in heinous murder cases. If the appeals system creates enough redundancy to prevent innocent men from being sentenced to death, then it's a necessary system.
 

Last edited by WindowlessHouse; 12-16-2008 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 12-16-2008
 
#83
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Originally Posted by Adovid View Post
If it costs more to execute someone then to keep them alive in prison then there has to be some issue with cost being needlessly spent in doing so.

Death related to asphyxiation of inert tasteless gasses such as nitrogen, helium or carbon monoxide happen on accident all the time. You know if it's so easy you don't even have to pay attention to get the job done that it is painless and effortless.

Your body only recognizes itself as suffocating when it has high levels of carbon-dioxide. It's why using rebreather's under water are especially dangerous without training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_asphyxiation
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...47/ai_17374449
The money is spent on the appeals process and everything leading up to the execution. How do we get rid of that? We dont.
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There are different degrees of murder and your "consistency rule" disregards the mitigating circumstances inherently within the hypothetical situation. Does a manslaughter conviction necessitate the death penalty? I think not. If the burden of proof is such that any jury would convict the innocent man of murder, why should they be killed? The people committed manslaughter because the sentence was inevitable given the controlled situation.

Cost issues are irrelevant in regards to societies need for justice in heinous murder cases. If the appeals system creates enough redundancy to prevent innocent men from being sentenced to death, then it's a necessary system.
Cost issues irrelevent? Really? Do police stations have a blank check than? Are there thousands of detectives per district making sure justice is served? Cost issues count, and the death penalty cant even tout cost as a plus. Just another minus on its record.
 

Last edited by Reflection; 12-16-2008 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 12-16-2008
 
#84
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Originally Posted by The Hawaiian
But again there is the problem of executing innocent men. Like I said earlier, I would agree with the system if it were applied consistently. Murder an innocent man and you too shall be put to death. This includes those involved in the conviction and execution of an innocent man, since by definition this would be murder (the unjustified killing of a person).
I already posted my solution to this concern. If a person kills/tortures in prison where there are cameras everywhere. The nature of their act cannot be hidden. If the act is recorded repeatedly then there is no denying the consistency of the individual and their offenses. If an individual is convicted of a crime on the outside, it is more difficult to judge their nature, motives and thus naturally the death penalty would not be as applicable.

It all comes down to solid undeniable, repeated and consistent evidence pointing to the nature of the individual as irreversibly, unpredictably or consistently violent.

So prison would basically be where people come to either face their final conviction or wait out their term while hoping for evidence/testimonials to come to the surface to prove their innocence.

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The money is spent on the appeals process and everything leading up to the execution. How do we get rid of that? We dont.
Well the way I had it planned out, with the amount of evidence provided against them. How could they possibly appeal it? Obviously if you sentence someone to death on evidence that only shows that they were in the room when a person died they will be able to appeal it, "There was someone else in the room, I was unconscious." stuff like that. If you have video recorded surveillance of repeated acts with witness testimony, how are they going to appeal that?

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Cost issues are irrelevant in regards to societies need for justice in heinous murder cases. If the appeals system creates enough redundancy to prevent innocent men from being sentenced to death, then it's a necessary system.
Well I was going to expect someone to ask why this form of death penalty I had mentioned hasn't been used. It is the fact that it is already such a painless process that it is put on the fence between the two groups: The people who don't want the death penalty at all and those who think the death penalty is some kind of repercussion or deterrent otherwise it would be to the criminals advantage to have it available to them.

It just needs to be realized that random people do random things. The spin of a wheel could just as easily determine what happens to you when you compare it to what kind of people a person in a group as big as ours can run into in their life. Some people are just trash that are so far away from the center (known as outliers, in every random distribution they exist) that their actions don't even make any sense, or if it does make sense-- its a mindset which is ultimately useless and destructive to others. It is self destructive to even try to make sense of it sometimes or to think of it in terms of any kind of balance in a scope of what we expect from day to day.

The only way to get rid of these problems is to try to either cull the number of people who are definitely murderers thereby causing the distribution to be less random-- or to fight the ideas and memes which invoke the reasons that drive those murders.

I don't see the concept of spreading malevolence as something justified to be anything but unnecessary and leading to trouble in other ways. The concept is like pouring water out of a glass and onto the floor where the water seeps into the cracks that lead into another cup somewhere else.
 

Last edited by Adovid; 12-18-2008 at 01:34 AM. Reason: memes of the reasons of the murders of the reasons of the memes >.< Par7

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Old 12-17-2008
 
#85
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The money is spent on the appeals process and everything leading up to the execution. How do we get rid of that? We dont.

Cost issues irrelevent? Really? Do police stations have a blank check than? Are there thousands of detectives per district making sure justice is served? Cost issues count, and the death penalty cant even tout cost as a plus. Just another minus on its record.
Yeah, really. The death penalty is a necessary tool for society to have. This does not have to lead to absurd situations like spending the entire GDP to execute one murderer or having to catch "everyone", so cut the crap. Also, no one here is claiming that the death penalty is cost effective. I agree it's too expensive. But that doesn't mean I want it done away with.
 
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Old 12-17-2008
 
#86
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Yeah, really. The death penalty is a necessary tool for society to have. This does not have to lead to absurd situations like spending the entire GDP to execute one murderer or having to catch "everyone", so cut the crap. Also, no one here is claiming that the death penalty is cost effective. I agree it's too expensive. But that doesn't mean I want it done away with.
Why is it necessary? It isnt a detterent. It costs too much. Its finality is unbalanced by its uncertainty. What good is it? The system would go on just fine without it, possibly better.
 
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Old 12-19-2008
 
#87
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You can not, and will never be able to justify murder, with somthing is basicly another murder: Death penalty. But that is just my opinion, let us remember of all the victims for whom death is the only satisfying penalty.

I understand both point of views, but i think rotting up in prison is a much harder penalty than being put to sleep: a lifetime in a 5x5 cell, with crap food and brutal violence.
 

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Old 12-21-2008
 
#88
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CBA reading it all again so I'll just re-iterate what I said the last time this horse corpse was dragged out.

The question isn't "Do you believe in the death penalty?" because it's a bit of a fantasy. The question that needs to be answered is "Do you agree with killing an innocent person to inflict revenge upon a greater number of guilty people for little if any demonstrable sound reasoning."

The answer for me is no. Simply because that no matter how much we tinker with the system it will still have flaws, until we have the technology to actually witness every event in the past no matter where we will kill someone who is innocent.

Not might, will it's only a matter of time, and no matter how much we streamline the system to achieve more and more time between deaths of innocent people it's still a cost I'm unwilling to pay.

So you see we can completely side-step the issue that it doesn't actually achieve jackshit either.
 

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Old 12-21-2008
 
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CBA reading it all again so I'll just re-iterate what I said the last time this horse corpse was dragged out.

The question isn't "Do you believe in the death penalty?" because it's a bit of a fantasy. The question that needs to be answered is "Do you agree with killing an innocent person to inflict revenge upon a greater number of guilty people for little if any demonstrable sound reasoning."

The answer for me is no. Simply because that no matter how much we tinker with the system it will still have flaws, until we have the technology to actually witness every event in the past no matter where we will kill someone who is innocent.

Not might, will it's only a matter of time, and no matter how much we streamline the system to achieve more and more time between deaths of innocent people it's still a cost I'm unwilling to pay.

So you see we can completely side-step the issue that it doesn't actually achieve jackshit either.
I will then re-iterate my point, if you do not accept the death penalty because of the risk that you could execute an innocent, you therefore cannot accept any form of punishment, because any trial and punishment inherently has this risk. This has nothing do with the death penalty but with our ability find out the truth, which is never perfect.

Fact of the matter is that you do agree with imprisoning a few innocent people for the rest of their lives. The argument that they stay alive and you could eventually rectify it doesn't matter, because how much would this improve the odds compared to keeping someone on death row for ten years and giving them numerous appeals?

At least the folks on death row got a defense that's better motivated and under a strict time schedule.

In the end you'll have to motivate the death penalty based on its effectiveness within the system as a detterent and a way of consoling the victims families by enacting revenge on their behalf. Justice must be seen to be done.

Note: I am not in favour of the death penalty. Though I have to admit that on a very basic level I do feel the need to have people put to death that would do harm unto any of my loved ones.
 
 

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Old 12-21-2008
 
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I will then re-iterate my point, if you do not accept the death penalty because of the risk that you could execute an innocent, you therefore cannot accept any form of punishment, because any trial and punishment inherently has this risk. This has nothing do with the death penalty but with our ability find out the truth, which is never perfect.

Fact of the matter is that you do agree with imprisoning a few innocent people for the rest of their lives. The argument that they stay alive and you could eventually rectify it doesn't matter, because how much would this improve the odds compared to keeping someone on death row for ten years and giving them numerous appeals?

At least the folks on death row got a defense that's better motivated and under a strict time schedule.

In the end you'll have to motivate the death penalty based on its effectiveness within the system as a detterent and a way of consoling the victims families by enacting revenge on their behalf. Justice must be seen to be done.

Note: I am not in favour of the death penalty. Though I have to admit that on a very basic level I do feel the need to have people put to death that would do harm unto any of my loved ones.
Wrong. You can object to the death penalty based on the finality of it and support other forms of punishment. The slippery slope argument doesnt work here.
 
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