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Old 10-03-2008
 
#1
United States The Hawaiian
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Default Is the sun setting on the United States?

I fear that we as a nation are making the same mistakes that the Soviet Union made, and which eventually lead to their collapse. Title was ripped from BBC frontpage for those of you crying plagiarism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/7645438.stm


Nobody could reasonably argue (keyword here: reasonably, i.e. someone other than Chaos) that our military is not stretched thin. With over 700 bases in more than 150 countries, the United States is being drained financially by our obligations to the world. The same thing happened with the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

Add to this our recent adoption of socialism and government intervention into the economy, I feel like our ideology and prestige in the world will take a serious blow in the coming years. I think the world will no longer believe in our free market principles since we ourselves have abandoned them, just like our alleged support for democracy (only when it benefits us).

Is this the end of America? No, but it marks the beginning of the end of our golden age which lasted a good century (assuming we hang on to 1st place for another 20 years). Bush will probably go down as the worst president in the history of the United States, if only because he will be remembered as the "beginner" of the downhill slide.

We had a good run, but we let it slip. Carelessness, stupidity, arrogance, the reasons are too many. We can't blame everything on government corruption. After all, at some point Americans have to take responsibility for their own ignorance.
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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Well I'm a more-or-less novice on the subject, but I wouldn't say the USA's position on Israel and Saudi Arabi has been doing it any good these past 50 or so years.
 
 

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Old 10-03-2008
 
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DE, FDR was the "beginner" of our downhill slide. If you want to point a finger at Socialism and its beginnings, you must look to FDR and his New Deal policies. Yes, we are doing the same thing again, in a different manner, but it's more of the same, only bigger. To say that Bush was the creator of this mess is patently false.
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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The sun has been setting on the west ever since 1916. The USA has simply transplanted the British Empire on a smaller scale in an ever declining Western world.
 
 

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Old 10-03-2008
 
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I saw that article too, and I thought it was such good commentary that I sent it to all of my friends.

The title of the article is probably not appropriate--this is not the end of the United States. However, this week we have witnessed a pivotal moment in world history. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the ideologies of communism fell. Likewise, since the world's most unregulated market failed this week, this was the end of free market capitalism as the ideal structure of society. What we are coming to learn, I think, is that stable economies must be as free as possible, but they must also be regulated to protect against corruption.

So, I don't think we have seen the end of the United States, but certainly the end of an era. The US is no longer the world's superpower. Those benefits and responsibilities are becoming more equally distributed--taken up by China, India, Russia, Europe, and to some extent, Brazil. Today's world is becoming more and more multipolar.

One can't help but ask how the United States will fare with this changing political landscape. We will know more in time, but I think it will largely depend on the way Americans choose to adapt. If the United States continues to operate as if it were the world's superpower (which it is not), then it could be left in a very dangerous and isolated position. However, if it chooses to embrace the new world and welcome other nations to their new positions of power and responsibility, we might hope to see a safer, fairer, and more prosperous world. At least that is what I think.
 
 

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Old 10-03-2008
 
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I think many of our socialist policies will have to change and we will kick the slump. On the other hand, if we react to the slump by creating more socialist policy, I see a very big crash on the way. I, of course, will move if we continue to implement more and more socialism into our government. I don't need a Big Brother and I sure as hell don't want to be a part of lil' Mexico here and lil'Canada up North. Europe or Japan for me.
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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I hardly see this as the sun setting on the US. Yes the US is going to go through a rough patch for a while but what nation hasn't? I do not foresee the US imploding much like the Soviet Union did but I do see us falling in our world ranking for a while. Eventually we'll get back on our feet and be even better than before. This is true of nearly every nation who has had such problems in the past.

Socialist ideas and practices are not the answer for our problems right now. They are nothing more than a band-aid that the ill informed public thinks will help keep us secure for the time being rather than fix the problem and have programs that would benefit us in the future.
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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Quote:
Is the sun setting on the United States?
You wish. I'm not interested in the wet dreams of European elites who had their time in the sun, don't have any chance of getting back into it, and have only hoped-for schadenfreude as their sole joy in political life.

Americans haven't gotten angry, really angry, in 68 years. We're starting to get angry again. The world - or at the least the part of it that thinks the time is ripe to help knock us down a few pegs - better watch out.

The 21st century will be an extension of the 20th, with the West and East struggling for global dominance. The West is better positioned in all respects and will win... even without our little trump card I like to call India. As the strongest Western nation, we will see the 21st be an American Century just like the 20th. There's little if any difference between today and the late 1930s, except instead of a Nazi Germany guaranteed to start a war, the West is faced with challenges that must be handled in the more subtle manner of the Cold War.

Quote:
When the Soviet Union collapsed, the ideologies of communism fell. Likewise, since the world's most unregulated market failed this week, this was the end of free market capitalism as the ideal structure of society
The "world's most unregulated market" fell precisely because of the regulations placed on it.

The free market is dead, that's hilarious. You need to go look at American public opinion a little more.

Quote:
One can't help but ask how the United States will fare with this changing political landscape. We will know more in time, but I think it will largely depend on the way Americans choose to adapt. If the United States continues to operate as if it were the world's superpower (which it is not), then it could be left in a very dangerous and isolated position. However, if it chooses to embrace the new world and welcome other nations to their new positions of power and responsibility, we might hope to see a safer, fairer, and more prosperous world. At least that is what I think.
I disagree entirely. We are the world's sole superpower. There is no nation on earth that can challenge us. Our Navy controls the world's oceans. We have already assimilated India and to a lesser extent Brazil into our fold. Russia is in terminal demographic decline, Europe is on the same road. It is time for the United States to abandon Europe to it's fugue. Europe is a dying old land with no future. It's time to start according them the respect they deserve, which is far less than what they receive. America is about the future, not the past. Europe is the past. The Americas are the future.

China can imagine that it will dominate the globe all it wants, there are too many conflicting pressures in their society to keep it stable for all of this century. Christianity, the pollution, the corruption of the CCP, the CCP's intervention in the Chinese economy to ensure a favorable trade surplus, the huge difference between life on the coast and the interior, and finally, their need for oil, will present significant hurdles for them.

Only if Americans shoot themselves in the foot will we see the fantasies of those who wish us ill come true. The time is fast approaching to throw everyone in Congress out and elect a president and a Congress who will cut spending to no more than $2 trillion a year, pay at least $250 billion more on the national debt than interest alone (which would reduce the debt $2 trillion in 8 years), get rid of the most ridiculous regulations we have on our economy, and get out of the way of the American people.

This opinion you people have about the decline of the United States as if it was some thing that most of the rest of the world wants is simply not true. Outside of our enemies, there are very few governments that want us to stumble. We are the linchpin of a system of international relations that has given them power all out of proportion to the actual capabilities of their country. If we lose our power, so do they. That's why you don't see European governments talking about the decline of America, you see the commentariat doing it. European governments don't want their strongest ally to go down. They know that they can oppose us when they like, support us when they like, and we won't do a thing to hurt them. And that we shield them from having to shoulder certain responsibilities, like having militaries capable of carrying out the international missions that their framework has created an obligation to participate in. If it weren't for the transport capability of the US military, the entire international peacekeeping and humanitarian aid system would be crippled, perhaps beyond repair. No one who has a serious interest in seeing the world safer, less sick, and less hungry wants to see America go down.
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
#9
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Trump card India? I'm not sure I understand that completely. India is a good buddy from what I know but how that helps i'm not entirely sure...
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuts View Post
DE, FDR was the "beginner" of our downhill slide. If you want to point a finger at Socialism and its beginnings, you must look to FDR and his New Deal policies. Yes, we are doing the same thing again, in a different manner, but it's more of the same, only bigger. To say that Bush was the creator of this mess is patently false.
While FDR was clearly hugely responsible for our current mess, the real beginnings of socialism are rooted with Lincoln
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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We talk frequently about popping bubbles, boom and bust, etc, little do people realize that the United States itself is a bubble. The American Empire is a bubble. Chaos is so proud of his great nations military might, but who bore the cost of that? The middle class. It's no different than who bore the cost of the Soviet Unions extravagance in regard to nationalism.

The burden on the "atlas class" can only be borne so long. The end result is the bursting of a unsustainable economic bubble. The United States is a bubble and is currently in the process of popping.

The bubble known as the British Empire popped. These bubbles are always replaced by a freer market, which itself then becomes raped and pillaged, only to be later regulated and disallowed to correct its malinvestments and moral injustices. That freer market is of course China, albeit an under developed one.
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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Old 10-03-2008
 
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The United States certainly is facing new problems, and I would say our prestige in the world is at a decline mainly due to our attitude and lack of respect shown to our allies. However, we won't be leaving the spotlight anytime soon as far as being an economic and military powerhouse. A focus needs to be held on maintaining the top slot in technology for both military and civil application.

This whole Romanesque arrogance that can be summed up by statements that pretty much come off as "fuck everyone who isn't us" really hurts our efforts in the long run. Until the day arrives that the United States can just haphazardly slaughter entire populations comes(it won't, and if it ever did that means things have gone very badly) we will be forced to fight unconventional wars that center around winning the populace over to our line of thinking. The failure to realize this is why we lost Vietnam, and only now has the military taken the idea of serving the people you have conquered to heart(the whole hearts & minds approach). This really isn't something new, but as much as we like to style overselves off the Romans and other great empires it is important we don't make the same mistakes as them.

At this point in time the U.S. stands at the crossroad where we take the correct actions we can begin to bring real stability to the world. Assuming we dodge this finacial crisis we can really begin to change the areas of the world that spawn the people that hate us so much. The very nature of Western success makes us and our allies the targets of various groups all with different underlying motivations.

Spreading liberal democracy to the various nations of the world is a worthy goal, and it is a round we have already started on. If we approach it slowly and methodically applying the correct amounts of military, political, and economic pressure we can do much to regain our image in the world and take away the areas that give rise to the people who are easily recruited by extremists. It just needs to be done one place at a time to where we don't over extend ourselves, and it requires diplomatic effort to draw in the support of allied nations. Nations that if we just treated them with more respect, and listened to their advice more often might be more than happy to help us, but don't because we bruise their egos all the time.

In short America is not on the rise but it isn't really on the decline either. We have a good chance in this day and age to rise even further than we already have, but it will require a great amount of effort and sacrifice. The question really comes down to whether the people have the stomach for it, and if the politicians can overcome(or be ousted) their personal interests and look out for those of the nation.

America's motto should be "America, no greater friend, no worse enemy". The friend part is really something we have paid less attention to lately.

Quote:
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The United States is also alone in the fact that it is held to a double-standard by anti-American swine. How many times have foreigners, college professors and douchebags like Howard Zinn condemned us for slavery (which ended 140 years ago).
While many people hold us to a double standard, or in their own eyes we can't do anything right. It also comes down to the fact that when you proclaim yourself the best and the most compassionate you are held to a higher standard. When you wish yourself to be seen as the world's "good guy" everyone is going to be watching your every move. Also, the habit of wishing to see the best people fuck up isn't something exclusive to people outside the United States. The image of an entire organization or people can be sullied by the actions of a few douche bags.

When it comes to our own population doing the criticizing they often have legitimate complaints when it comes to some of the actions taken by our government, which can be very hypocritical in nature. For every person that denounces their government's every action there is an equally ignorant person that will support the government no matter how deplorable and disgusting the act. Both of these people need to be educated on the world around them, and the realities faced by our nation and the people around them.

Quote:
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Support for Israel and the Saudi government is what gives us any sort of meaningful leverage or oversight in the Middle East and over fundamentalists who endorse Islamic expansionist ideologies. Islam and the literal word of the Quran is the root problem, not our support for the state of Israel. You don't throw away 14 centuries worth of Jihad and make an excuse about foreign policy being the problem.
Fundementalist religion of any kind is a problem for Western Society regardless of its particular flavor, and even then it is hardly the root problem. Saudi Arabia itself is one of the biggest violaters of human rights. While we need them at the moment because of their resources they are hardly innocent. Saudi Arabia easily spawns plenty of terrorists by diverting the blame of their societies ills away from their oppressive government to the United States and its allies. It is important that we are able to build Afghanistan and Iraq into modern nations that provide a much better way of life for their citizens then we can go tell Saudi Arabia to piss up a rope.
 

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Old 10-03-2008
 
#14
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If the U.S. continues to elect socialists in office, very bad things will happen, but eventually they will be removed and we will elect officials who respect the free market.
 

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Old 10-03-2008
 
#15
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It is the natural order of the world we are living in. One must fall for another one to rise.
I for one would not say, seeing as I know first hand, that socialism will be the down fall of USA. Sure if it were to go to communism the sure. But those two are quite far from each other.
 
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