95% of the smug college-age soon-to-be-robbed still think they're living in a meritocracy and would regret their wisely "efficient" decision-making when they encounter the first sign of serious illness and their life savings are eaten away or health insurance decides to increase their rates ten-fold as they grow older.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country.- Hermann Goering (1893 - 1946)
There will ultimately have to be a consensus as to what qualifies a person for true disability. I firmly believe that a majority of people whom are claiming disability are capable of working, they simply choose not to do so. For those whom are truly disabled, if we hold people accountable, then we should expect them to have the proper insurance care which would include short and long term disability. Long term disability would provide for these instances. In the end, if someone falls short, there is charity.Originally Posted by SiegeTank
What if I make a club where everyone agrees that for stability and humane reasons everyone should have access to base commodities like health and education and part of the club organises both that and telling people that they're free to leave if that's not what they want to pay for but they should please get off club grounds, would that be charity or armed robbery
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country.- Hermann Goering (1893 - 1946)
I for one wholeheartedly support Nuts' 6 step plan.
"Much like how low rates on treasuries and low inflation refuted the world view of the 'internet-austrians'."
Yes because im a total oxygen thief when it comes to doing my part for society.
Bob's Facist Dictatorship: oppressing Bob's Militia since 7/15/2006
"He's a bad muthafucka don't you know, he'll crawl over 50 good pussies to get at a fat boys asshole."
That is all very nice, but vague utterings about how "there will have to be a consensus" isn't an answer to my question. I personally know people in the United States who have held a job and are actively searching for a job but who are, because of circumstances beyond their control, currently unemployed. Because they lost their job, they lost their health insurance, meaning they have to pay truckloads of money for the medicine which their spouse requires to stay well and, ultimately, alive. This is making life very hard for them, and I would argue unneccesarily so.
You've proposed these six steps of yours as if they're some presidential election platform, so you tell me what you want to do about such cases. Are they eligible for government assistance or not? Because I think they should be. I'm sure there are profiteers, and they ought to be rooted out of the system, but the fact of the matter is that here are good people suffering for no particularly good reason, and from what I'm seeing you're going to throw them on one heap with the profiteers, and I don't think that's reasonable or, for that matter, just.
Except that "the proper insurance care" is apparently far beyond the means of many ordinary people. It's not affordable. And so I have to ask again: what do you propose to do about that? Point them to the nearest charity? Is that it? How are they even going to pay for this "proper insurance" when they're disabled?
So whether or not one does ones duty for society relies on ones genes, now? That sounds awfully familiar.
Last edited by SiegeTank; 01-08-2008 at 11:14 AM.
Haulin' Thermonuclears Down The Interstate
Sorry trucker but you can't go back / They just hit Chicago with a sneak attack
LA and Frisco's 're nothin' but great big holes
Don't know 'bout you, but I'm gonna make it / Got my rig wound up and we're gonna take it
To the truck stop at the end of the world
"You know what is reputation? Is people talking. Is gossip. I also have reputation. And not so pleasant I think you know." - Adelai Niska
Siege, in response to your sidewalk argument: The government stole the money it uses to create "public property". Since the government, having stolen it, cannot be the rightful owner, and since the government also refuses to return the wealth it took to the rightful owners, public property exists in a state of no ownership. Anyone can use it for any purpose they feel like.
In response to Kenji: If I was ill and needed treatment this would not give me the right to rob other people to pay for it. So what gives the government the right to do it? However, even from a purely utilitarian perspective that gives no consideration to ethics, government run healthcare is, as the Cato Institute has convincingly argued, an absolute nightmare and even America's corporatist, state protected cartel-driven health care system is superior to it.
Without a price/profit/loss mechanism there is no way to rationally allocate resources. The government has no idea what to produce, when to produce it, how much of it to produce, to whom it should be given and in what order, etc. Capitalism is best for the poor (and everyone else) because its system of rational allocation minimizes the negative effects of the inescapable fact that we have scarce resources, and maximizes our productive capabilities. This leads to the creation of enough excess wealth that the poor in the west have been infinitely better off than the poor anywhere else in the world.
Last edited by Lasagna; 01-08-2008 at 11:19 AM.
Why change Dicks in the middle of a screw? Vote Nixon in '72!
They are eligible to go to their local church and ask for help, which they will most likely recieve. Why can't they find a job anyways, don't have access to a newspaper or monster.com? There are plenty of jobs to be had.
Let's define "disabled" here because that term is used to describe a wide range of people who are quite capable of working.
"Much like how low rates on treasuries and low inflation refuted the world view of the 'internet-austrians'."
Since when does applying for a job automatically mean you're hired? Have you ever actually been between jobs? I'm well-educated, young and willing to do whatever, and there have been times I was consistently refused any job I applied for, exactly because I was well-educated, young or willing to do whatever. I am also healthy, unburdened by much financial responsibility, and my spouse isn't suffering of an incurable disease. Any of those could be a reason for a would-be employer to hire somebody else over me had I not been lucky enough not to be afflicted by those traits.
I have since become employed; in fact, I've had the opportunity to sit on the other side of the table during job interviews several times. At any given time, a horde of people apply for one single job, and all but one of those people don't get to be that one person who gets the job. Many of those other people are perfectly qualified, but they still don't get hired, often for the wildest of reasons.
So yes, there are jobs out there. The thing is that you have to be hired before that starts being of any use.
Nuts used the term first. Let him define it.
Last edited by SiegeTank; 01-08-2008 at 11:36 AM.
Haulin' Thermonuclears Down The Interstate
Sorry trucker but you can't go back / They just hit Chicago with a sneak attack
LA and Frisco's 're nothin' but great big holes
Don't know 'bout you, but I'm gonna make it / Got my rig wound up and we're gonna take it
To the truck stop at the end of the world
"You know what is reputation? Is people talking. Is gossip. I also have reputation. And not so pleasant I think you know." - Adelai Niska
Siege, to answer the very serious question of health insurance affordability, I would propose a singular cure, tort reform. Our health insurance is prohibitively expensive due to the massive payouts from physician malpractice insurance. With tort reform comes affordable insurance. With more contributors to insurance funds you will see even greater savings.
Those whom were disabled during their working years should have had the foresight to be properly insured. Those whom were disabled from birth should have either family help or charitable contributions. While government intervention isn't to be completely ruled out, it shouldn't be considered a right as it is now.
Disabled: Unable to perform a repetitive function for 4-8 hours at a time without severe pain or immobility.
Imagine the tax dollars that would be saved by this one time expenditure. No more welfare babies, or at least a dramatic reduction. Any woman silly enough to take $1000 in exchange for their fertility isn't fit to be a mother.
No one's duty to society isnt based on their genes, but if they are going to fuck it up for the rest of the society and be a total useless mong with 3 babies and drinking cider on benefits, then they might aswell just go put a round in their head and save the money for something worthwhile.
Bob's Facist Dictatorship: oppressing Bob's Militia since 7/15/2006
"He's a bad muthafucka don't you know, he'll crawl over 50 good pussies to get at a fat boys asshole."
The thing that I don't understand about the government debate is that you are the government.
If you think the government does a shitty job of providing healthcare for people who can't afford it - then that's fine. But you better be ready to shell the money out of your own pocket right into the hands of doctors if you're going to take that position. Otherwise I can't for the life of me take you seriously. And unfortunatly, the majority of you selfish crazies arn't.
You want criminals to clean up your highways? You go clean up your highways. Or how about you don't make the mess in the first place.
Tired of welfare? You be the one to make sure thousands of innocent kids don't starve to death.
Tired of the public school system? You go and educate the children who wern't as lucky as you to be born into a well-off family.
The truth is this isn't about government vs individuals. This is about people who believe they shouldn't have to help other people. Guess what: YOU DO! That's right, you HAVE TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE. Its the law. It's not a choice. You have no freedom in this matter. . If you desire not to help other people, tough shit. As a human being, you are required to help other beings. Not because its the moral or right thing to do. Not because I or anybody else want you to. But because its the only correct thing to do.
Last edited by Luther Stark; 01-08-2008 at 12:04 PM.
We are not the government. The government is a group of individuals in society who maintain their authority over the rest of us through force of arms. What do you think would happen if it became legal to not pay taxes?
In the case of democracy, "government" is simply mob rule over the minority. One can persuasively argue that it is a necessary institution if only for the common defense, but it is a necessary evil at best
Last edited by Lasagna; 01-08-2008 at 12:07 PM.
Why change Dicks in the middle of a screw? Vote Nixon in '72!
No it isn't. There is no such law.
PLAGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
I'd continue to pay taxes. What would you do?
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