Help My Terran strategy

[OperationOpaz]

This is my Terran strategy.... Tell me if there is something flawed...
1.8 SCVS
2.Build Depot
3.Barracks
4.Geyser
5.Academy
(Keep in mind I am constantly building SCVs and Rines)
7.Barracks 2 - Second Geyser
(At this point I also have Stimpack rine range and optical flare)
8.Comsat
9. Factory
10. Engineering bay
11.Second factory
(Keep in mind at this point I literally have mad no defense at all. Not even a single bunker.)
12.Starport
13.Science Facility
14.Second starport
15.Expand
16.Either go Tanks and Gols or 8 Bcs with Tank and gol drop with a few science vessels.

[Kaz]

What kind of maps are you playing? And are you playing 1v1's? 2v2's? 3v3's? Against what races?

You should not have the same strategy (or "build order," which is what it is more commonly known as) for every single situation.

[PraetorKoronis]

What Kaz says but that's okay TvZ

[some.guy.]

What Kaz says but that's okay TvZ

going bcs vs zerg is never ok
getting optical flare before comsat or factory makes no sense
getting the second geyser is usually not feasible without an expo.

the b.o. in general is pretty awful. check out the b.o. thread

[irlubomirsky]

This is my Terran strategy.... Tell me if there is something flawed...


It's all flawed. There's no point in building 2 factories if you are going to go bc's, and there's no point in building 2 starports if you are going to go tanks. if this is you "default" build order or strategy, then it seriously needs some revision because your default b.o.'s should be flexible, and this one you just waste money on unnecessary things. You need to scout your opponent to know whether its smart or not to go bcs, tanks, what have you. Go watch some pro replays or play people other than your friends.

[Kaz]

My advice is to not watch pro replays. They can pull off crazy shit that no one else can. Most pro replays are saved because it was an interesting game - interesting games often come from at least one of the players using an unorthodox build. Right now you only want to learn the orthodox builds and strategies.

You want to watch reps of good players, not pro players. I advise watching WCG reps.

[TwoTimer]

optical flare... ROTF

[ADX]

First of all where is scouting in here.. Second of all second geyser before expansion how can you even do that ? All in all your strat is pretty much messed up and a noob like myself could probaly still pull a win off.

[PraetorKoronis]

going bcs vs zerg is never ok
getting optical flare before comsat or factory makes no sense
getting the second geyser is usually not feasible without an expo.

the b.o. in general is pretty awful. check out the b.o. thread

ActuallY BC's does work TvZ
it's not the best choice, but assuming that you always have some M&M, it works great. As long as if you can micro too...

Another point is that optical flare is pretty good =P

I mean if you optical flare their early lurker it is very useful isn't it? lol

I find that strategy very interesting, but only if you know how to use it right.

But comsat should be right after or even before stim pack. That I concede

[some.guy.]

ActuallY BC's does work TvZ
it's not the best choice, but assuming that you always have some M&M, it works great. As long as if you can micro too...

Another point is that optical flare is pretty good =P

I mean if you optical flare their early lurker it is very useful isn't it? lol

I find that strategy very interesting, but only if you know how to use it right.

But comsat should be right after or even before stim pack. That I concede

hydra/defiler > bcs
besides the fact that you'll get destroyed if you waste the time/money to get bc tech and bcs in any usable number

optical flare is useless... no it isnt useful to use it on the early lurker, there are better options

[Nytefish]

ActuallY BC's does work TvZ
it's not the best choice, but assuming that you always have some M&M, it works great. As long as if you can micro too...

Another point is that optical flare is pretty good =P

I mean if you optical flare their early lurker it is very useful isn't it? lol

I find that strategy very interesting, but only if you know how to use it right.

But comsat should be right after or even before stim pack. That I concede

I have to say I really disagree and I'll try explain without insults.
BCs will die to defiler spells, if you haven't died already.
Even if you manage to flare all their lurkers, they can just spot with lings or overlords.

Basically this strategy is your typical fastest/bgh/other money-map bred idea, even though it can win against weaker players, does not mean it is good. Also, as others have said already, there is no single strategy for every map, against every race and for every situation.

[Kaz]

I've seen many TvZ replays of top and even pro gamers using BCs. Of course the zerg combatted with hydra/defiler, but it's not like you're going to let your BCs stand there getting raped. BCs have great mobility (compared to the rest of the terran army), and it is tough no matter what to destroy a BC army even with plague and dswarm.

That is not to say that you should always go BCs, because I discourage it as well =p But do not think that BCs are completely invalid in TvZ.

[Nytefish]

If you have a large enough advantage to get a decent amount of BCs, you could probably have secured a win by not getting them. It's like mass ghosts in TvT, I've seen it work when one player is miles ahead, but I wouldn't consider it a valid strategy.

[Kaz]

I've attached an example of BCs being used in TvZ. The terran was not miles ahead when he decided to get some BCs, in fact, the game was pretty even.

I've seen BCs being used plenty of other times in TvZ and if you wish, I could find more replays for you. I doubt that progamers with important matches and money on the line would risk getting BCs instead of easily securing the win because they are "miles ahead."

[Nytefish]

I've attached an example of BCs being used in TvZ. The terran was not miles ahead when he decided to get some BCs, in fact, the game was pretty even.

I've seen BCs being used plenty of other times in TvZ and if you wish, I could find more replays for you. I doubt that progamers with important matches and money on the line would risk getting BCs instead of easily securing the win because they are "miles ahead."

I think I've seen that one, off teamliquid?

When he started getting BCs the Terran had about 50 more supply than the Zerg.
The Zerg had a terrible drone count.
Oh yeah, and the Zerg won in the end.

This replay proves my point more than yours?

[TheRabidDeer]

I've attached an example of BCs being used in TvZ. The terran was not miles ahead when he decided to get some BCs, in fact, the game was pretty even.

I've seen BCs being used plenty of other times in TvZ and if you wish, I could find more replays for you. I doubt that progamers with important matches and money on the line would risk getting BCs instead of easily securing the win because they are "miles ahead."
The terran just had a stockpile of 3,000+ minerals and 2,000+ gas... instead of using it wisely he just blew it all on 10 BC's that got rocked by plague, and lost.

[Kaz]

Ok, so I didn't give the best example of BCs being used. But you can't deny that they weren't completely useless. The zerg was using swarm and plague very well, and the terran's land army repeatedly got raped. Therein lies the advantage of BCs - you can hit and run with them, you can kill expos easily that would be hard to attack with a ground army, etc. And that is what the terran did, and it worked pretty well. He did not just lose those BCs without doing any damage. Yes, plague did hurt the BCs, but BCs aren't the only things that get "rocked by plague," everything else gets "rocked by plague" as well.

Also, it's not like the terran completely stopped all other production and pumped only BCs. He kept making more m&m and stuff. When he began making BCs, he already had like 8 vessels. And the game was extremely close at the end, it could have went either way.

Anyway, I'm not encouraging BCs in TvZ, and I personally would never get BCs in TvZ. You people just need to get out of the "mass bcs or mass carriers suck" mentality that we all got from playing money maps.

[Sloth]

Here's a decent example of BC in TvZ. This is one of my games from PGTour, I think. Season 6 or some shit.

Eh shit, I named my reps vaguely during that time.. hope it's one of those two. I don't have SC installed to check, I think it's TvZ3

[PraetorKoronis]

We're on season 10 mate.

I dunno even what patch those are loaded on, lol

[Kaz]

You can watch the replays on 1.14. It's the second one, tvz2.

Although it was a good game, I don't think it demonstrated my argument very well. When you got BCs, you simply just ran over him, killing everything. He did not use defilers, so you were able to just stand and fight. He threw scourge at you in small groups, so that was ineffective as well. You should not be able to stand and fight with BCs against zerg, they should use dswarm/plague and force you to retreat. BCs are good for hit and run tactics to kill expos and his main (tech buildings), which you didn't do (and didn't need to do) at all.

[Sloth]

Except that when I got BC's, I was losing and lost my base, and I proceeded to float my buildings and go mobile with the BC's, taking out his hive tech and his expansions, thus denying him his defiler tech. Plus, defiler probably wouldn't have mattered long, I had 5 or so BC's and some sci-vessels, so I could irradiate OR d-matrix ;x

Didn't you watch? =/ Real application of a strategy is better than a pro replay of a strategy.

[Kaz]

Yes I did watch.

You didn't make BCs as a result of you losing your base. You went BCs first, and then lost your base. Since you could not protect your base and attack at the same time, you went mobile. You were forced to do it, there wasn't any other option.

You did not deny him defiler tech. He simply chose not to get any defilers and instead wasted all his gas on scourge. You took a long time killing the bottom right 2 expos, so his main where all his tech was was up for a long time, giving him plenty of time to put down a defiler mound.

And defiler would definitely have mattered. You could irridiate the defilers, but not before they could cast plague. 2 plagues and all your BCs are left with 4 HP. If your BCs were somewhat spread out, then maybe 4 plagues. But he had plenty of time to plague your BCs as you had to travel around the whole map to kill him. He had the whole map with working expos, you did not.

[Sloth]

Sure, whatever. I would have lost if I hadn't made the BC's (I am human, I realize when I've lost the ability to macro as well as my opponent, and knew I needed to spend a lot of resources fast). Remember, I played the game, you didn't. My opponent gambled on scourge, and it didn't pay off.

Anyways, I'm not going to argue with you about my 2 year old replay. I tried to help your argument, but apparently you want to whine. Sorry.

Good luck with your successful career as a lawyer..

Tom

[FoxBlade]

You know... all I can say is, it's a real pain in the ass to fight ZvT vs. BCs and M&M... ><;

[SuperKiller]

I've seen nada use bcs vs zerg several times on luna.. this was like a month ago when i was actually watching a few replays. he'd 1 rax academy, rush, and expand.. then use both geysers and make m&m with many many vessels, then if the game went on long enough he'd just add several bcs with m&m, and eventually convert to mostly air. i think it was 12+bcs with 10+ vessels in one game..

but thats nada, and he desn't need tanks ;)

[FPS_Deano]

ok...i may as well throw my 2 cents in...

Battlecruisers are not usually the "normal" way to go in TvZ...most people would spend the cash on MnM or tanks (or both)...but in my opinion battlecruisers can be a deadly weapon if put to use correctly...for example...i remember one match at a LAN party about a year or two ago...i was getting bored and decided to try some wierd/stupid stuff...i performed a tank push with battlecruiser support...yup thats right...battlecruisers (only 4 or so), + valks + Tanks = mass containage...i then went on to eliminate expansions...he eventually lost to resource starvation. I dont normally play terran (i play zerg) ...and this really opened my eyes...battlecruisers are better than i once thought.

Another thing....no offfence...none at all...but tOmA….that replay…wasn’t exactly good…I mean the overall skill level…the zerg had shit opening (lings in your base and targeted a barracks before scvs), then he proceeded to waste like 8 lurkers where you had a field of MnM and a turret….and when he saw your bcs…..he tried the same thing…over…and over…and over to kill them…not once did it work…if he saved the scourge then cloned Pwnage…if he saved for hydras, Pwnage…if he teched to defilers Pwnage…another thing…he didn’t upgrade at all….he got range, speed, etc…but no attack/carapace upgrades…which would’ve owned seeing as he tried ultraling…

but then…I guess that would be my personal reactions…..and I wasn’t there to see what he saw…or feel what he felt…….ahhh who cares eh?

laterz dudes

[rpf v2.0]

Lose the build order. Decide on whether you're going to play as if you're in control of the game or not. Play accordingly.

So, I'm a Protoss player, which means I'm almost never in control of the game, but rather I have to have adequate information about my opponent's build, unit mix, and probable course of action. Then, I act accordingly. Anyone who knows my playstyle knows that right about now I lose to some annoying strategy, call them a faggot, and leave without typing "gg."

[Bullet2head]

hydra/defiler > bcs
besides the fact that you'll get destroyed if you waste the time/money to get bc tech and bcs in any usable number

optical flare is useless... no it isnt useful to use it on the early lurker, there are better options

Hydras kill bcs? What are you smoking? A group of fully upgraded bcs can take at least 50 Hydras before they start going down. That's at worst case sencario (sp?).

And if a Deflier comes along and swarms, move. Durr.

If your going bc, I'd suggest till you have 3 armour and wep upgrades, and at some point during the attack, send in some gols. They'll take some pressure off the bcs, but not much is left so the gols can handle it. At that point Yamato the Hatch/lair/nexus/whatever.

If you can, sit back and take out a few drones to stop mineral and gas income. Make sure to watch your base to. Sometimes the best time to attack is when your being attacked...

[flavormanIII]

^Right.... Obviously you don't play this game as competitevely aswe do and yes hydra/defiler do own BCs plaughe+swarm game over.. As if you can get 3 ups that easily and why waste money on Yamato?

[Bullet2head]

I really fail to see the problem in moving your units. And I'm not saying group them all in one thing, but spread them out in 2 or 3 groups. 2 would be used to attack the base, the others will yamato the CC or whatever, at which point the player probably won't notice till the attack is over and they run out of minerals/gas. And if you get lucky, they won't hae enough money for a new CC. It works, I do it all the time.

[some.guy.]

I really fail to see the problem in moving your units. And I'm not saying group them all in one thing, but spread them out in 2 or 3 groups. 2 would be used to attack the base, the others will yamato the CC or whatever, at which point the player probably won't notice till the attack is over and they run out of minerals/gas. And if you get lucky, they won't hae enough money for a new CC. It works, I do it all the time.

stop playing fastest, its teaching you crappy strategies

[Xxwho3zJohnQxX]

I've been playing TvP lately, and it seems that I just can't seem to have the advantage.

It seems that TvP is all about getting rushed. And if not rushed, then out expoed.
If I attempt the bamboo rush, they would have a sufficient number of goons and at least a zeal arleady. And if I do get past that, they can easly drop a reaver and pull it back while pushing my way in.

There is not a game i know that the opponent dosent rush with their first unit or two.

The zealot and goon drops are just too powerfull, and works cleverly if attacked at the wall and the minnerals at the same time. And a reaver drop with goon harrass at wall can easly come right after.

If that's not the case, then it's DT up front. Occasionaly they would have a DT on the center somewhere, making it hard to take control of the enter.

And if I constantly pump tanks and vutlures, it always seems to be that there are wayy more goons than I would have tanks.

This is probobly the hardest matchup for me.I jsut can't seem to fight my way around it.

I really have no idea how a Terran can rush and have the advantage. Tanks build too slow and goons build too fast. Wel, at least in my case. Is tehre any attack stratagies that anyone can offer?

[some.guy.]

whats the bamboo rush

[lifestyle]

My main race in protoss, so I can only tell you what is the hardest for me to beat.

I think that FE terran is the hardest to beat. Terrans like to take advantage of the fact that 1 or 2 cliffed tanks can hold off many dragoons. Two bases worth of gas is a pain for me because I have always had trouble breaking large tank numbers.

As protoss, I have learned that in order to win, I need to have an expansion up on a terran. TvP on the ground seems to be more cost effective for the terran because it is so easy to pointlessly lose stray units to tank fire. Anyway, this means that when I see a terran is going FE, I always expand myself and try to take a second expansion as soon as I can fit it in.

All this expanding usually delays my tech, so I am more vulnerable to old school tactics like the vulture rush and tank drop. Even though I know it is dangerous, I often take my natural before I have a shuttle to protect the cliff. Just remember, a protoss can't out expand you and out tech you at the same time, unless they don't have an army.

[o(x_x)o]

hm. you dont seem to understand the whole system (sry my english sucks) behind TvP. Its very tricky, but it has become my best matchup after TvZ for some reason. Normally Terran ground owns a protoss ground army, of equal cost or supply. but ofcourse the reason why early game totally belongs to toss is that factories cost 100 gas, mines, vult speed and siege mode cost gas aswell, immediatly putting the toss in numerical avdantage.

you should be able to beat the usual goon-range rush with no problems, and to avoid reaver pop, and dt's there is just one thing you can do. scout! if you see he has his choke blocked with a goon, he is surely doing one of both. if he is pro he will maybe be getting about 10-12 speed zeals (if he has only seen you use tanks until that point) but that is so rare though it kicks ass.

! -> to find out what to prepare against (reaver or dt) float an ebay over his base. it will get taken down, but not before you have your turrets up where you need them, and prepared against whatever he was teching for. dont expand too early if you expect your opponent to do reaverpop or dt.

once you have gotten trough early game you are 100% safe. it is impossible for toss to win the game by attacking, since tanks with turrets and mines and vults work so well.

so now you have your nat expansion. try to push to the next closest expansion, and start dual upgrades when you have optimal cash flow from both expansion, and are able to keep feeding your factories.

at this part of the game, the protoss will try to gain such economical advantage, that he can compete with your 'superior' army. usually templars, and shuttles with zeals are what you should be expecting. toss will then try to prevent you from expanding further, while at the same time, keep expanding and strenghtening his economy.

usually about lategame, toss will stop ground unit production, (just about when your ground army easily overwhelms his [3/3 terran metal pwns], and start producing carriers, or arbiters. ofcourse not only these two but they will be major part of toss army. this part of the game terran has to quickly cut protoss cash flow, while at the same time take expansion he can get, as long as he has map control. usually this is expansion easily accsesible by ground, where carriers can not harass over cliffs. with the right combination of goliaths, tanks and vults (emp if necessary) you should then win the game.

dont try to push to your second exe too soon, but soon enough, so the toss is not able to push you back. if he is able, he will probably have gg'ed himself, since he has not yet expanded enough and you will overpower him with 2 exes (versus his 2) easily in midgame.

jesus i hope that long text doesnt scare you. it is basically the terran view of TvP. ask if have any question or discuss this

gg gl °.°

[NaAani]

Tbh, the simple explanation of this is, they are better than you. All you can do is practice and learn how to do things better.

[o(x_x)o]

naAani is right :D to help you get better read my post anyway

[some.guy.]

im still trying to figure out what the bamboo rush is

[Bullet2head]

well, if I only play fastest, and never anything else, wouldn't those stratagies be useful in those maps?

[Xxwho3zJohnQxX]

Wow, floating E-bay scout? why didn't I think of that XD

Dang, Im so concered about surviving that I just didnt grasp the rest of it.

Yeh, Im actually startig to get good at this.
Im geting closer and closer to wining. Im just missing a few things.

I still need to work on my mine micro. is it better to micro each vulture to mine one by one or as a group? When I do it as a group, it seems only one drops em >.>

Thanks for the info though. i got the scouting down, but I pretyt much needed that floating e-bay XD.

Also, is it better to place mines early or to place mines as soon as you see goons on the way or w/e?

My only question is, what kind of army should I have before I make my first attack?
I mean, my goal is to slow him down from expo if he hasnt already. I just lose too much units when it comes to attacking. Maybe i should work on my micro better. but still, it always looks like Im out numbred.

The greatest problem of when i attack is that toss can get shuttle so friggen early its redicculous. 5 min, they are sure to have a shuttle with zeals, making it hard for me to push against them.

I was thinking iof sending an army of 3 marines, 2 tanks, and 3 scv's, but it got whooped by a goon attack with zeal drop. :(

Should I go for goliath or wraith in that case? Its hard to knock out goons if I can't seige. and I seige, dropped zeals are the problem.

I can handel early rushes. But I encountered an elaborate drop, like it was a pro tactic. i lost too many workers "not all, or most, but enough to where I lost more $ than he did" just trying to fight back.

My problem when it comes to mid game is conred mainly about expoing. Should I control center then expo, or should I just gather untis and defend my ground and expo a little earlier?

Thanks alot for your help. SC is a tough game for me, im in my 5th month playing normal maps and Im starting to understand these things little by little.

[FoxBlade]

im still trying to figure out what the bamboo rush is

I think he means Gundam rush?

[Xxwho3zJohnQxX]

Thanks ya.

i tried to play more agrressivly, and I see how mines, tanks, and vultures own the feild. I did pretty good. It was my first time exceccuting a push, so it was hard for me to move in. I have no idea how to push in without running into my own mines. I used it to my advantage though, by unseiging tanks ,attacking ,and luring his hoard of zealots into my mine feild. it was fun XD.

I lost it al once that arbiter came with statis. Man, horrible. I had good micro that game too, at least for a guy who's kinda starting still.

Is it a good idea to go for lock down then ghost somtime in the game,or should i just concentrate on getting gols?

I'd liek to post up my rep, but BW Launcher added an FP view thing and yo uneed BW Launcherto view it. i have no idea how to turn it off. So if anyones willing to watch it and give me advice, let me know so I can host it elsewhere.

Thanx,
~John Q

p.s. Sorry, I ment Gundam Rush, but I called it bamboo rush for some reason.

[flavormanIII]

NO! Mechanics of normal games are a lot different than Money Maps and Fastest which is about massing. Normal games have a lot of tactics involved micromanagement and build orders. Fastest is all about MACRO. Normal game is a balance of both. Why won't you try a normal game youll see how different it is. Pro Leauges never play fastest in any official tournament goes to show how competatively SC:BW is played..

Just watching ang Pro Replay is enough to see the difference...

[NaAani]

naAani is right :D to help you get better read my post anyway

People focus way to much on trying to learn what exactly to do, the thing is, attacking the problem that way won't help much unless you're totaly clueless to how to play bw.
What people need to do is practice, get better at what they do and they will soon be able to see what should be doen and what shouldn't and in what situation you should do this or in what situation you should do that.

[Xxwho3zJohnQxX]

I know what you mean. I just dont know how to attack.

By that I mean attack stratagies. Like elaborate drops with what units and stuff. I guess thats the kind of stuff that takes a long time to learn by yourself.

[Nytefish]

Having a specific, fixed 'attack strategy' won't help at all if you don't understand the idea of timing, macro, unit control. Even if you have the best strategical counter to their actions, it doesn't matter if you can't keep up in the other aspects of the game. You'll just get outmassed or something.

[SuperKiller]

strategy for fastest: be protoss... you win!

storm rapes everything.. especially the 1 mineral worker line.

[NaAani]

I know what you mean. I just dont know how to attack.

By that I mean attack stratagies. Like elaborate drops with what units and stuff. I guess thats the kind of stuff that takes a long time to learn by yourself.

You need to actualy understand what your doing and why for those things to have any possitivt effect on your game, and when you do that they will come naturaly anyway.

[Bullet2head]

NO! Mechanics of normal games are a lot different than Money Maps and Fastest which is about massing. Normal games have a lot of tactics involved micromanagement and build orders. Fastest is all about MACRO. Normal game is a balance of both. Why won't you try a normal game youll see how different it is. Pro Leauges never play fastest in any official tournament goes to show how competatively SC:BW is played..

Just watching ang Pro Replay is enough to see the difference...

Right, but I normally don't play those maps. I understand that different stratigies come into play on BGH or campiagn maps, but that doesn't matter to me until I have to use them. In fact, I don't really play fastest maps all that much either. I'm usually doing a Sunken, or any other type of defence. Sunken being my favorite...

so I don't see the problem.


And, just for the win, I suck badly at BGH maps, even during the regular game before I went online.

[some.guy.]

BGH maps are still along the lines of fastest, if you suck badly on BGH then the abilities you have on fastest probably arent so swell either. Playing regular maps gets you better overall at using units effectively.